Any recommended genderist writers?

[bonfireoftheverities]

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - John Stuart Mill

This is something I've tried to keep in mind over the last half dozen or so years since I heard TWAW, thought "What?" and fairly quickly found FWR. So I've made sure to read as much as I can take from those who truly believe that men can be women, or if they don't actually believe it (because how can you, deep down?), desperately want it to be true. I say as much as I can take because after a while you've seen and heard it all before, and it never starts being convincing.

The latest pile of nonsense I dove into is this: The End of Trans Rights in the UK Is the Start of Democratic Collapse. Dear god, that almost made my brain melt. The links alone show you that he never strays outside an idiotic bubble (Helen Webberley being the first I clicked into).

Is there anyone you can recommend who makes their case without lying and relying on liars?

Yes, that’s what I was thinking of. Total lack of respect for same-sex orientations.

Thanks, I just watched an interesting interview with Bornstein from 1994 when the book was published. Pre trans activism - Bornstein comments that some men coming out as non-binary/gender-fluid were carrying through their male entitlement, pushing women aside, and said they had a lot to learn (words to that effect, not quoting).

He also whines about lesbian feminists in Whipping Girl. He is frustrated that they won't look past his penis and see the lesbian he's pretending to be:

Another popular excuse for our exclusion is the fact that some
trans women have male genitals (as many of us either cannot afford or choose not to have sex reassignment surgery). This “penis”
argument not only objectifies trans women by reducing us to our
genitals, but propagates the male myth that men’s power and domination somehow arise from the phallus. The truth is, our penises
are made of flesh and blood, nothing more. And the very idea that
the femaleness of my mind, personality, lived experiences, and the
rest of my body can somehow be trumped by the mere presence of
a penis can only be described as phallocentric.

It’s distressing that such phallocentric arguments, along with
related arguments that harp on the idea that trans women “physically resemble” or “look like” men in other ways, are so regularly
made by lesbian-feminists, considering that they are based in the
society-wide privileging of male attributes over female ones.

Those words all written by a heterosexual male.

Entertaining thread, full of the usual utter bollocks. I’m recovering after big surgery, so will appreciate pages and pages of guff that I can laugh at through strong painkillers for a few days or even weeks. Keep it going. Every nonsensical utterance from the gender identarians is sure to peak a few more readers.

obvious overlaps with incels.

Very clear misogyny & homophobia. Also the tired old trope that all lesbians can be turned by the right bloke.

Context matters.

"When I asked the cis men who responded to my ad if they had ever dated a trans woman before, they didn’t disappear like the cis dykes usually did. Instead, most of them gave thoughtful answers. Some said that they found trans women more interesting, open-minded, and/or courageous than the average cis woman. Others said they had honestly not considered dating a trans woman before, but they really liked my profile, and they considered themselves to be queer-positive, so they didn’t consider my transness to be a big deal. Still others put it quite simply: They are attracted to women, and while most of their past partners were cis women, a few were trans women, and it really makes no difference to them.

When cis men tell me these things, it honestly makes me a little sad. I mourn the fact that I have not heard similar sentiments from my own cis queer women’s community. I also find it ironic that cis dykes—many of whom pride themselves on their progressive politics and subversive sexualities—tend to be far more conservative and conforming to our culture’s yuck-dating-a-trans-woman-is-gross mindset than their cis male counterparts, at least here in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am also embarrassed as a queer for the fact that so many straight cis men have worked through, or are beginning to work through, their own issues regarding trans women, whereas most cis queer women refuse to even consider the possibility that they even have an issue.

I know first-hand that it can be difficult to confront such issues. I remember a time many years ago—I was either just about to transition, or I had just transitioned, I can’t quite recall—when I saw a short documentary about two trans women who were life partners. And I am horribly embarrassed to say that, at the time, I was somewhat squicked by their relationship.* *The irrationality of my reaction was not lost on me. After all, I am a trans woman. And I am also attracted to women. So what was it about the idea of being with a trans woman that bothered me so? Over time, I realized that on an unconscious level, I was still buying into the idea that trans women were somehow unattractive, defective, and illegitimate, and that being partnered to a cis woman was somehow inherently better, or more authentic. After much personal reflection, I had to admit that my reaction was profoundly anti-trans. And I eventually got over my internalized transphobia, just as I had to get over my internalized homophobia the first time I sexually experimented with a man, and just as I had to overcome my own fatphobia the first time I dated a differently-sized woman."

Queer. Repulsive word.

So these blokes were saying that thinking about it, they might be bisexual. And since being heterosexual is the default, they’d probably never had to consider their sexuality or make a statement about it, while the lesbians would have had to do both - and to fend off all the twatty blokes who joked about being lesbians themselves and / or about being able to turn them. Serano & his ilk would just have been more of the same.

"and just as I had to overcome my own fatphobia the first time I dated a differently-sized woman."

Expanding the quote doesn't makes it less incel like in nature.

There is no responsibility to have a sexual or romantic relationship with anyone and Serano isn't doing anyone any favours by valiantly sleeping with them despite his disgust.

"Differenty sized" is a really weird phrase. I'd get the instant ick if anyone used it about me!

You can imagine the conversations though: "I can't believe you won't let me do xxx when I am in a relationship with you even though you are differently sized".

some men definitely think they are doing us fat women a favour by even talking to us!

Can I request that 'context' be added to the Bingo card, please?

None of those men was straight. The onlt straight one was the incl moaning lesbians wouldn’t date him. If he’s hot all these offers from these er “straight” men, why does he need lesbians to validate him. Serious Andrew Tate vibes.

Yes, the context has him come across as even more obnoxious. Thanks for pointing it out.

The context is that men are happy to call a man 'woman', but women aren't.

"squicked" VOMVOMVOM

And this is exactly what I mean about one's biased priors limiting understanding that the OP is struggling with….& myself to be honest.

I wish to thank the commenter who linked the initial excerpt by Julia Serrano because they proved my point about biased priors. You see, I too was shocked when I first read that it disappointed Serrano that lesbians wouldn't date a trans woman because I strongly believe personal dating preferences aren't about bigotry as people can't help what characteristics they are attracted to. But Julia's point wasn't about that. She was making the point that people who should know better via their experience of being excluded should be more open to having their beliefs challenged. It's not unlike my being disappointed with immigrants or who stereotype & outright reject immigrants supporting political parties who enable this who should know better because I benefited myself from my families immigration. This doesn't mean these people don't have a right to their preferences or views but rather its disappointing for them not to be more open given their similar experiences & personal benefit.

It's interesting that an often complaint from GC's is how disappointed they are with women who support trans people claiming they are enabling misogyny & therefore should know better. You would think that Serrano's point wouldn't be lost on them given their own experience. But somehow because it came from the mouth of a trans person this obvious simple point got 'lost in translation'….aka known as biased priors. Instead the reaction is to nit pick & be insulted for people not being desired due to weight preferences. The irony of lesbians rejecting trans women over their preferences being completely lost on them.

Priors. It's all about priors.

She was making the point that people who should know better via their experience of being excluded should be more open to having their beliefs challenged.

But lesbians aren't attracted to men. They don't need to have their beliefs on that challenged. I don't see gay men suggesting straight men should have their beliefs challenged and try dating men. Or lesbians and straight women. It's only TW trying to insist others, who aren't attracted to them, should date them anyway.

While I hear you, the point is a strong belief isn't necessarily unchangeable. I'm sure there are countless incidences of life long straight women/men who never thought they could have an attraction to the same sex change their minds & be pleasantly surprised with the out come. Being open to possibilities allows opportunities one would have never imagined working out. And I think Serrano's point is she is disappointed with the lack of openness to the unkown particularly given the lesbian mindset of willingness to challenge conformity.

I'm sure there are countless incidences of life long straight women/men who never thought they could have an attraction to the same sex change their minds

Indeed there are. But they aren't changing their minds because someone of the same sex moans and whines that they are a bigot. They change their minds because they meet someone and they have a connection.

I know boys were always told that if they pestered a girl enough she'd finally go out with him, but I thought we'd moved past that. Yet another "male" behaviour that TW often show.

Dear JS
Thank you for your offer of dick.
Before I decide whether or not to take it up, I will need to consider the following:

1. As a lesbian, I have not up to now needed to use contraceptives. Do I want to go stuffing chemicals into my body just so that I can have sex with you? Is it worth it?
2. Contraceptives aren't 100% reliable. So I will need to have a think about whether I want children a) at all, and b) nine months from now. I need to assess whether I have the bandwidth (physical, emotional and financial) to carry and bear a child and look after it at least until it is an adult.

I also need to know more about you. Would you be a faithful, supportive and solvent partner and father if I ended up pregnant?

1. Alternatively, I also need to work out what I think about having an abortion. Even if I conclude that it is justifiable, I wonder how I would handle the emotional fallout?

Can I even get an abortion in this jurisdiction, or will I have to sneak off somewhere else to get one and hope to Heaven that the police here never find out?

You are getting impatient with my demurrals and implying that I am simply narrow-minded. None of the considerations I have listed above seem to have occurred to you. Or perhaps they have and you have just waved them away as silly female fuss. Either way, I am beginning to suspect that my main problem would not be the dick but the person attached to it. Your view of sex seems to be very, very male.

And anyway, do I actually want the Dick Experience? Why should I want it? Everybody else seems to be allowed their kinks (and even to parade them in the high street during Pride). Why can't I be proud of mine?

Yours sincerely...

You know you really sound like those blokes in the pub telling lesbians they just haven’t met the right guy yet. No one owes any one sex. You’re also being extremely homophobic. Homosexuality is not a belief FFS!!

Emily’s repeatedly ignoring the point that while men who assumed they were straight might very well not have considered whether they were also attracted to men, lesbians have already thought hard about their sexuality, realised their preferences and made the active decision to come out. Even more so back then.

Plenty have already exoerienced sex with men & pretty much all of us - & again even more back then - have had to fend off lines like “Bet I could turn you” or “I’m a lesbian too.”

Serano would just have been more of the same.

I’m wondering if Emily is an Andrew Tate fan. I’m getting the same vibes. AT also believes women owe men sex and women’s rights, needs and wants are secondary to those of men.