The liminality of sex perception, sex-based spaces and bodily autonomy.

[polypostwonder]

This thread continues a discussion between BonfireLady (sorry, I wanted to tag you but the system says your username doesn't currently exist) and I on biological sex vs perceived/observed sex in https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5530455-us-to-open-worlds-first-childrens-detransition-clinic-texas-hospital-to-offer-free-services-reversing-the-effects-of-gender-affirming-treatments?page=10&reply=152406258

She has requested I answer the following two questions:

1. would you consider that a viable way forward is for you to self-exclude from women's spaces and instead either advocate for third spaces for anyone to use (e.g. unisex facilities in addition to single-sex) or (probably your least preferred) use the men's?
2. would you support a restriction on anyone under 18 (or 25?) making permanent changes to their body, to match it with their perception of their "gender"? Similar to other restrictions on permanent body changes.

I believe I have previously answered them both. My answers today are superficially the same, but I have better thought out my answers (maybe?). To do this though, I need to share some assumptions.

In the previous thread, I believe there was somewhat of an agreement on the following statements:

1. People can identify a man when dressed in clothes 'traditionally associated' with women. Clothes are superficial to sex.
2. People look at other people and perceive their sex. People are not identifying the gametes/sry/chromosomes/other unobservable immutable biologic factor inside another person.
3. Assumptions about sex are made based on a person’s sex characteristics amongst other observable cues.
4. Pretty much every person in the whole world "exists within the expectations of sex categories". Very rarely it's unclear.
5. If a person exists within the expectations of sex categories, then socially they are treated as that sex whether they wish to be or not.

Building on those statements and previous discussion, some additional thoughts:

1. ‘Biological sex’ is defined by a person’s gametes/chromosomes/sry/other unobservable immutable biologic factor. This cannot be changed.
2. ’Observable sex’ is based upon the perception of sex characteristics rather than known biological sex and influences the placement and treatment of people in social sex categories. Perception is not under control of the observed, nor is it a demand of others.
3. Observable sex can be heavily influenced by biological sex and sex-based function. But sex-based function is not a requirement for the perception of sex.
4. Women’s rights are a cultural accommodation to rebalance access to society and ensure health, fair treatment, safety and/or dignity. Not all women require or access every right, but these rights are a vital benefit to women as a class.
5. Users of a culturally defined space for members of one sex may feel comfort, privacy or protection through separation from non-users. But all users share an equal right to feel comfort, privacy or protection.
6. Misogyny is not biologically based. It is a prejudice directed at women’s observable sex. Sexism can be biologically directed, but it can also be directed at members of an observable sex.
7. Sex realists believe every person should live and be treated by society according to their biological sex, no exceptions.
8. Trans people have a wide range of beliefs and goals. They do not share a single motivation.
9. Better quality research should be done with trans people of all ages.

I think BonfireLady is correct in saying each of us sees the other's "belief" as non-sensical and our own as position as factual. I'm hoping we can discuss this from a somewhat sensical space.

I am not desperate, nor do I aspire to womanhood. I recognise your (personal) experiences are different. I also recognise you believe all trans women are men. We are not going to agree on anything here.

It’s not mocking. It’s a statement of fact of what you do.

I have NEVER and would NEVER mock anyone’s experience of rape.

I have unfailingly sympathised with your experiences of rape and bullying.

you have lied more than once.

but I absolutely was NOT mocking you.

you go into women’s single sex spaces regardless of the fact that you KNOW you shouldn’t and your argument is. I pass. No one knows. It’s fine.

the logical conclusion to that argument is. Women’s consent doesn’t matter it’s not rape if they don’t know.

you do NOT get to override my non-consent like that.

Sneaky edit by the way. The statement ended at mocking.

other women? you are not of the group women. It was women and a man. Or many men, if more than one man was a victim.

I am a woman. You are not the gatekeeper of womanhood. No one here is. I recognise that you believe you hold the power of consent. I do not require your consent as a woman. We disagree.

You are legally not a woman. That upsets you and you don’t like it but that is the law in the UK.

You are male. Every cell of your body is male. Archaeologists, if digging you up in the future, would know you are male. Live with it.

We disagree. The law in the UK is very much questionable at this time, and the enforcement and interpretation, more so. My personal life will remain unchanged at this time. This isn't a 'you' thing, this is a 'me' thing.

My husband's family crypt requires cremation these days. But following your argument to it's gender critical conclusion, they will find my bones which are very much female in dimension and shape. If they choose to do a karyotype, they can deduce whatever they wish. I'll long be dead. I won't have to 'live with it.'

I also wonder why you are here. You clearly aren't a feminist, seem to enjoy trampling on women's rights, and seem to resemble very much a teenage boy who won't take being dumped. Are you sure this is the forum for you?

I'm sure there are 'nicer' places who will given you the validation you clearly seek.

The law is not questionable at this time.

I'm a lot of things according to mumsnet. We agree that I'm not here for validation.

"gatekeeper of womanhood"

Give. Me. Strength.

I think it’s a “validation” thing. It’s like how TIM use female spaces to “prove” they’re women. It’s not so much the space as the women in it. OP could go on Reddit and bluesky and have handmaids falling all over themselves to say he’s “totally a woman”, but that’s no fun. He’d rather come here and broadcast his thoughts to women he knows don’t agree with him in an attempt to dominate the space.

The sad thing is, if you would only allow that female people also exist and have both the moral right and a clear logical and utilitarian case to maintain the link to our past, our rights and the others of our sex under the name by which we have always been known, and stop trying to claim our name to label your personal ill-defined collection of feelings and attitudes, there probably is a lot we could agree on.

But I recognise that you do not respect women, as in the people who meet the original sex-based meaning of the word, enough to allow that.

So yes, as long as you hold your Gender Absolutist beliefs we are unlikely to find much common ground.

No we don’t, youre totally here for validation.

Can I just point out that a man in this forum just says TO ME, a violent rape survivor:

I DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR CONSENT AS A WOMAN.

I am sorry that you feel this as a personal attack. I really do. It took me a very long time to come to a place where I'm not excessively triggered.

Your beliefs that I am a man do not exist off of this website.

This isn't a 'you' thing, it's a 'me' thing.

Yes mate. That is the fucking point. The thing you think of as being a "woman" is very much a 'you' thing. It has nothing to do with the embodied female people the word was actually coined to name.

What does that actually mean? Of course her beliefs do. Please explain.

I am out on this website as a person who transitioned. Of course it is going to distort gender critical people's perceptions of me. There is no bigger sin.

Not true sir. If you were brave enough to tell everyone your full truth, not just your enmeshed friends and family but be out and proud to the world as a surgically altered male, you would find your sexist conception of woman-as-a-state-of-mind is not at all the default.

Legally he is a mam and he just told this entire website and the world that he doesn’t care about consent.

And another edit.

your beliefs that I am a man do not exist off this website is what I responded to. You’re not supposed to do an edit that changes your past in a material way.

but again you seem to consider that the rules of behaviour don’t apply to you which is no surprise.

And a really nasty edit to infer that I am excessively triggered.

I see you.

We will never know, because it will never happen.

You're right, though. I don't know how my friends would relate to me if they knew my entire history. We both know perceptively trans people experience hate, harassment and discrimination. But I am not, and I've not had to live that life. I don't have to live that life as if I am not currently required to have a tattoo on my forehead or wear a badge everywhere I go, lest someone become 'confused.'