Cambridge university debate

[WarriorN]

I’ve just started to watch; Buck Angel opening, which was never something I thought I’d see at Cambridge University - but this is how the de programming begins.

https://www.youtube.com/live/wE0JY9d7f-w?si=R65X7xp-ohfHJg2x

Thank you for sharing. I had to watch it in installments and saw Buck yesterday while having my lunch. It was a great opener.

I like listening to Buck speak and this was probably the best yet - another highlight is a video which is also with Blair White, talking discussing why "trans kids" should not be a thing. Yes, I agree that Buck pushes the "true trans" but the admission of mental illness being the root cause of the desire to transition and clarity that nobody changes sex are key.

Sadly the majority of the other speakers were tedious. Alfonso (I think I remember seeing his nonsense on X) was particularly bad, especially as he was speaking for the motion. It came across as a deliberate sabotage TBH, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely believed that his drivel made sense. Looking at the faces on everyone in shot while he's speaking is well worth it. By the end, everyone is clearly willing him to stop.

Sammy the Twerp was using the normal emotionally loaded talking points, which still do work TBF

Maeve was 🔥🔥🔥🔥

Webberley was her usual polished self. I use that word because to anyone who hasn't come across her before, her "I'm a doctor and I know and care more than you" spiel probably does work. That she batted off 12 interventions with her frustrated little "no thank you"s suggests people are seeing through it.

there was an abnormally high number of abstentions.

This is a very positive sign.

Does the radio clip include the number of yes, no and abstentions before the debate as well? A comparison of the two would be particularly interesting.

At my (state) secondary school, we had one debating lesson. We were each assigned a topic and had to pick a side to represent. I had the death penalty and was talking for it. I can't quite remember how I ended up with that, especially as I am against the death penalty.

A vote was taken at the start and everyone in the class was against it. Obviously I didn't put my hand up, but I was too.

By the end, the room was split half-ish still against it and half-ish abstaining.

My arguments were pretty simple. I used the emotional pull of how families' victims get the eye-for-an-eye closure (their loved ones life got cut short, now the perpetrator's is being too) and logic (it should only be used for murderers and when it's beyond doubt and cheaper than keeping murderers in prison). To be clear, I disagreed with what I was saying as I don't think there is ever justification for the state to take a life.

The key thing was that I had sufficiently convinced enough people in the the room (so as to be noticeable) to feel unsure that their previously held certainty still made sense.

For this debate, I suspect that the nonsense coming from Alfonso didn't really help the pro cause much, but putting everything together it sounds like lots of people recognised that it wasn't a simple case of "let's just be allies and support the activists". Even if we don't know what the vote was before the debate, that in itself is significant. The more everyone follows the TRA call to action to "educate yourself", the less the blank cheque of unquestionable allyship.

Webberley was her usual polished self. I use that word because to anyone who hasn't come across her before, her "I'm a doctor and I know and care more than you" spiel probably does work.

It's a pity that nobody was able to intervene & point out that for all her claims she is not actually allowed to practice as a doctor because she refuses to engage with revalidation. She qualified in 1992 so is probably in her late 50s but hasn't held a licence to practice for nearly two years & it's extremely unlikely she will ever be able to practice again.

Middle class non binary person contradicted themselves twice in that short speech

Firstly she says people dont just hear a label thing and want to be it after saying she heard a label thing and wanted to be it.

Then she said she wasn't really a man after all and then said trans are what they are. But she wasn't as she just said.

Not really demonstrating elite-level thinking skills there.

@BonfireLady no I don’t remember the before results being shared. Maybe they are out there somewhere!

I don’t recall doing any debating at my secondary comp. Would have been good as I was pretty opinionated back then and tried to campaign for girls to be able to play football and have a trouser option for school uniform (unsuccessfully). I love listening to debate. Sad I might be but I sometimes put the HOC on in the background at work just to hear the debate. It really is a skill.

This is a great point: “The more everyone follows the TRA call to action to "educate yourself", the less the blank cheque of unquestionable allyship.”

there was an abnormally high number of abstentions.

Also just watched one speaker - Serena - call for people to abstain as the category LGBTQIA was meaningless.

I felt a bit sorry for the non binary woman. Like how she could acknowledge that she ‘made a terrible man’ (I wonder why?), but instead of concluding she had to accept that she is a woman, she chose to pretend she is neither. I bet it will pass in time as she matures and realises all women think the shit parts of being a woman are shit.

im glad someone else mentioned how insufferable the Alphonso bit was - I found it very hard to even engage with what he was saying. Loved Maeve and particularly the commenter in the audience about how lesbians can’t associate.

Webberly, batshit as always..

Fantastic debate and proper airing of views. Do think it may be the start of those seeds of doubt for many folk who have unthinkingly fallen into allyship. More of this please but I wish we saw more of this in our actual political chambers in Wales, Scotland and Westminster.

Do we know that actual break down of votes?

Maeve is a shero! The lesbian speaker was also good- calm and consistent in her delivery.
I like Buck - strong advocate against transing kids. I know, I know 'true trans' etc but isn't this how things used to be when transexuals (old, old term) were a minority? Buck acknowledges that dysphoria is a mental illness; how can it not be? Buck also has stated many times that it isn't changing sex but living life presenting as the opposite sex which eases dysphoria.
Agree 'Sammy' sounds like a twit (Monty Python's upper class twit anyone?) Patently uninterested in womens' rights of course. Blah blah.
The speaker talking about drag/TW being at the forefront of fighting in the struggle for rights. No mention of Fred Sargeant????
As for Dr HW- same old same old. 'I'm a doctor' so there! And 'sex assigned' bullshit. This woman might as well have sent a recording as she never deviates from her same speech. Grifters gotta grift. Awful woman.

I haven’t been able to find this. Maybe someone who is on twitter could ask?

Maeve is exceptional: eloquent, articulate, courageous. I am sure she has a very starry future ahead of her.

It was only one lesson of preparation. Mostly about the structure of a formal debate and a tiny bit about how it should be possible to debate something you don't actually believe. I think that was a throwaway comment. I'm struggling to remember how I ended up being on the pro side of the death penalty but in my hazy recollection, nobody wanted to do it but the topic was one that had been chosen for the class. I think there was a pool of topics and people had to pick one and find someone to spar with. I was super geeky, super opinionated on what is right and wrong and not particularly popular at school, other than amongst my geeky friends 😂 I imagine it was one of my lovely geeky friends and I that debated each other, but can't remember and we've lost touch now.

What I'm taking from all of that is that as we grow older, our opinions evolve. I think it's easy to acknowledge that based on secondary school to now but I suspect that many of the students in that debate hadn't thought theirs would at this age... so were perhaps surprised to feel conflicted.

no I don’t remember the before results being shared. Maybe they are out there somewhere!

If they are, that would add some validity to my theory above.

Edited to add some clarification: have amended "prep" to preparation, given the former seems to be a way of making homework sound fancier these days. I assume it was always thus in private schools, but could be wrong.

All of this ⬆️

But especially this ⬇️

More of this please but I wish we saw more of this in our actual political chambers in Wales, Scotland and Westminster.

Come on MPs. It's quite literally your job.

Could add some validity. Not would, TBF.

Too late to edit again.

I think it would have been a hard debate to win outright because "failing" could be taken in two ways.

One is that LGBTetc activism is failing its constituency now (arguably a yes, between undermining lesbian rights, public backlash against TRA overreach, and activist focus on pronouns and kink displays rather than LGBs and Ts in situations worldwide where actual human rights for gay and trans people are still lacking).

The other is that LGBT activism has failed overall (clearly a no, because very real gains have been made on gay rights in many places, and the Ts in some places have got "rights" that trample other people's).

So it would have been possible to feel that LGBT activism has gone off the rails now but isn't a failure overall, and vote against the motion.

So it would have been possible to feel that LGBT activism has gone off the rails now but isn't a failure overall, and vote against the motion.

Agreed. As I understood it, that was the crux of the first opposition speech. He seemed happy to fall on his sword as an old man who will leave the complexity to the younger folk.

How has she avoided prison? I thought she did a runner to Australia.

I haven't heard of any protests or threats or superglueing incidents. So thats progress.

How has she avoided the reality of biology, despite being a doctor?

Presumably she has approached all of it in a similar way:

• sound like you know stuff and care. Like you're the mum to the world, but particularly to vulnerable minorities
• "no thanks" away anyone who disagrees with you. If they do get their views out in the open, tell them they are unkind and/or not a doctor
• have a legal structure in place to manage accountability

Agreed. As I understood it, that was the crux of the first opposition speech. He seemed happy to fall on his sword as an old man who will leave the complexity to the younger folk.

I didn't get that so much as he is taking a broader view and doesn't feel the current disagreements are material compared to the progress that has been made in his lifetime. Maybe we're all inclined to take "modern" as being our own lifetime so he's discussing an entirely different perspective to the students.

I hadn't seen Buck Angel before. Her position seems similar to that of @Seethlaw the nice French trans identifying female who posts here occasionally. She has gender dysphoria & changing her body has made her feel more comfortable but she still knows she is female.

Just watched the whole thing. Maeve and Serena were both superb. Their passion was as eloquent as their words. Connie Shaw's face when the anti-Webberley guy spoke was a picture. Really pleased to see Helen Joyce there supporting these young women on behalf of all of us.
I confess to fast-forwarding Webberley. Listening to her puts my immortal soul in danger.

The 11 minute clip Maeve uploaded on X has had 1.4M views👏

https://x.com/MaeveHalligan/status/2055228205804421218