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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Looking for a gym with female-only changing rooms by sex: a journey

330 replies

2021x · 11/05/2026 00:16

I am trying to find a gym in my city (not UK) that excludes males from the female showering and changing rooms.

I was in my gym and there was a man in the changing room- no attempt to be female other than a sports-bra- and since then I was just stressed everytime I went.

I have emailed a gym who say they are trans-inclusive on a case by case basis and said I should use the accessiblity changing room if I am uncomfortable.

I have also put up a post on Reddit in the local page - that got auto-moderated, and then the same post on the national page that is going through normal moderation.

My post says this

I am looking for XXXX gyms that have female‑only changing and shower areas that are restricted by sex, not self‑identified gender.

I’m comfortable sharing these spaces with other females, but I’m not comfortable changing or showering in areas where males may be present.

If you know of any gyms in XXXX please sent me a direct message.

Wish me luck.

OP posts:
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7
HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 12/05/2026 14:54

borntobequiet · 12/05/2026 14:27

That’s a shame, because it was so revealing (no pun intended).

Yes, I would much prefer that these posts were left to stand, but I can see why MN needs to delete. I can usually get the gist of a deleted post from the replies anyway😁

MyAmpleSheep · 12/05/2026 15:30

I think we should question the reason behind deleting a post. Presumably it’s to avoid taking a conversation down a road it shouldn’t go (according to mumsnet’s rules). There’s no point doing so days and hundreds of posts later, after that post has been replied to many times. What purpose does deleting it then serve?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/05/2026 15:44

MyAmpleSheep · 12/05/2026 15:30

I think we should question the reason behind deleting a post. Presumably it’s to avoid taking a conversation down a road it shouldn’t go (according to mumsnet’s rules). There’s no point doing so days and hundreds of posts later, after that post has been replied to many times. What purpose does deleting it then serve?

I have taken to routinely cutting & pasting into my replies now so that even if the post gets deleted the words still stand.

Datun · 12/05/2026 15:51

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · 12/05/2026 14:53

I'd be willing to be he wrote it entirely deliberately to piss off or upset Mumsnetters.

Of course. He tries to provoke women in the same way that he would try to provoke another man. How little they understand us.

Indeed.

TeiTetua · 12/05/2026 15:57

It seems to be the comment about elderly people that got deleted. I thought that was completely vile and that I ought to report it, but I didn't get around to it. Evidently others did, and good for them.

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/05/2026 16:11

It’s so difficult to know whether to reply to posters that go strong and wrong. I know I must bore the life out of everyone trying to explain patiently to the poster why their argument is daft and dangerous, but maybe it will help others new to the debate.

Starsaff · 12/05/2026 16:12

EmilyinEverton · 11/05/2026 04:17

But very elderly women do not commit around 97% of all sex crimes, including voyeurism and indecent exposure.

Neither do trans women.

Transwomen are males i.e. men. Their patterns of sexual offending do not differ from other males. In fact trans identifying men are more likely to be in prison for sexual offences than non trans identifying males. So males who choose to identify as “women” are indeed as much as risk as any other man if not more so.

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 16:47

EmilyinEverton · 11/05/2026 09:32

The recent ruling regarding the Good Law Project v the EHRC did find there was “scope for a strong argument” that allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet did not amount to discrimination against biological men so I'm not so sure about an illegitimate discrimination claim holding.

Well now....

I look forward to seeing the appeal for this judgement then.

https://x.com/MForstater/status/2054577625864015990?s=20

The claimant "LS" claimed that NHS England indirectly discriminated against women, Muslim women and women with PTSD relating to male sexual violence because of their policy of permitting trans staff to use the facilities of their gender identity at their offices.

The Tribunal decided that the claimant’s complaint of indirect sex discrimination succeeded because the respondent failed to show that its policy was “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

- there is no express legal right for a trans person to use the single-sex facilities of their gender identity under the EqA or under Workplace Regs 1992;

- the respondent’s aims (including its aim of respecting the gender identity of its staff) were legitimate. But there was no express consideration of the impact on female staff.

- the respondent should have considered an alternative measure i.e. permitting trans staff to use gender neutral facilities. The Tribunal concluded that doing so would have had a lesser impact on its much larger number of female staff.

When the judgement is published for the public, I look forward to reading it.

In the meantime, if Maugham wishes to support an appeal, by all means he should support that so that the law can be tested. It makes no legal sense to allow one group of male people into a female single sex provision and no other groups of male people.

If the segregation is proportionate to exclude one group of male people or even one male person, it is proportionate to exclude them all.

Maya Forstater (@MForstater) on X

📣 @FayeRCTribunal who has won her case against NHS England! Congratulations to Naomi Cunningham and Liz McGlone representing 👏👏👏 Tribunal finds the policy of permitting "trans women" to use female facilities was harassment in relation to sex &a...

https://x.com/MForstater/status/2054577625864015990?s=20

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/05/2026 17:28

onepostwonder · 12/05/2026 01:14

This site is basically all about Schrödinger's body. Actual bodies matter when they matter and don't when they don't. The post is homophobic. It's just not worth pointing out on mumsnet.

Actual bodies matter when they matter and don't when they don't.

Correct. This is why we sex-segregate changing rooms, dormitories, rape and DV recovery services, and loos, but not workplaces or public transport.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/05/2026 17:35

EmilyinEverton · 12/05/2026 04:17

So now we're getting into domestic violence between romantic partners specifically?

You asked for a direct comparison regarding violence & now that data is 'inconvenient' to your narrative you casually wave away violence to 'just something between romantic partners'?

Let's just be honest now, this was never about violence was it?

You've still ignored that fact that according to the evidence you provided yourself, lesbians are less likely OVERALL to commit violent (or any other) crime than either gay or straight men.

You quibbled the word "criminal" as being vague remember? So I generously provided you with the details of which you are attempting to divert from.

You still haven't addressed the male propensity to commit sex crimes,

Indeed I have by making the point that sub groups differ in offending patterns which makes using 'male' offending an over simplified inaccuracy.

"or the fact that most trans women are not homosexual so the crime rates of gay men are irrelevant."

The broader point you are missing is it's not in terms of potential variables that might conflate offending levels of males. Variations in group behaviours clearly exist that impact offending. Transgender people are clearly distinct from normal male/female behaviour so its entirely possible that their offending levels might vary from the norm because of this. In any case, we don't actually know their offending patterns nor if we did would they be statistically significant enough to draw meaningful conclusions about their offending patterns.

In practice, it doesn't matter if gay men are less likely to be violent than their straight counterparts. We can't look at someone and say "he's gay" but we can, with reliability approaching 100%, look at someone and say "he's male". Safeguarding policies have to be workable. Keeping all straight and bi men out of women's spaces but letting the gay ones in can't work. Keeping all men and boys over the age of eight out can work and has done for well over a hundred years in the UK.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/05/2026 17:45

EmilyinEverton · 12/05/2026 06:11

"Might be" in terms of domestic violence? Are.

Whether or not is "over all" is missing the point that's being illustrated here by this example is behavioural differences between sub groups impacts offending. That's undeniable. And it's not just being gay that changes the results but age & economic status. And again, in any case we don't know the offending rates of trans women & if we did their statistically insignificant low numbers as a community make any conclusions about their offending impossible.

But we cannot know just by looking at or talking briefly to a man that he is of low risk, but we can tell pretty reliably that he is male, a member of the sex that commits the vast, vast majority of sex crimes.

Nor do we about men in the workplace or those dating but crickets regarding employment segregation or chaperones where the violence overwhelmingly happens. Why is that?

Workplaces have dignity at work policies and grievance processes. The bar for getting fired for sexual harassment is far lower than the bar for being jailed for rape. Many workplaces are also fairly open-plan, which deters serious offending. There have been many cases of men putting cameras in the women's loos at work, demonstrating the continued need for single-sex spaces to be protected.

Dating is a choice. Women dating take numerous precautions to maximise their chance of coming home alive. And we know that, even with these precautions, 50% of rapes are committed by the victim's current or former romantic partner. Women take this risk because they hope to find a suitable father for their future children. If he can't be trusted on a date, however is she supposed to marry and live with him?

Your argument appears to be "women have very few safe refuges from men anyway, so why not just give them all up and put up with the increased risk?"

We said NO!

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/05/2026 17:48

EmilyinEverton · 12/05/2026 06:15

I "campaign" for locked cubicles. Seems to work just fine in millions of restaurants, bars, cafes, airlines & shops globally.

@Keeptoiletssafe might want a word with you. The gap at the bottom is there for your safety, including safety from rapists.

MouseQueen · 13/05/2026 18:29

EmilyinEverton · 11/05/2026 06:52

"This study was undertaken to help determine if homosexuals and bisexuals are more or less criminal and/or violent than heterosexuals. Based upon samples of 197 male and 279 female college students, Pearson correlations revealed several significant, but weak, relationships between sexual orientation and most forms of self-reported criminal and/or violent behavior patterns. Among males, the data generally suggested that heterosexuals were more criminal and violent than homosexuals (except in the case of drug offenses), but that bisexuals were more criminal and violent than heterosexuals. Among females, lesbians (including only a few females with exclusively homosexual preferences) were generally more criminal and violent than heterosexuals, although they were still less so than males (except for homosexual males). Results suggest that some important differences may exist among both sexes regarding relationships between sexual orientations and criminal/violent behavior.
A different pattern of findings emerged for the relationship between sexual minority status and crime among males. Gay males appear to display lower levels of physical aggression and criminal behavior as compared to heterosexual males (Ellis et al., 1990; Pinhey & Brown, 2005; Sergeant et al., 2006). Furthermore, sexual minority boys, in contrast to sexual minority girls, did not appear to be overrepresented in the juvenile justice system (Jonnson et al., 2019). Though limited, at least some early evidence suggested that bisexual males tended to report more involvement in violence and crime than heterosexual males (Ellis et al., 1990)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/019188699090146I?via%3Dihub

Another post hiijacked by aggressive, regressive TRAs. You're a predator, simple.

borntobequiet · 13/05/2026 19:18

Oho, cat, pigeons.

onepostwonder · 13/05/2026 19:24

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:05

Oh my!

https://x.com/akuareindorf/status/2054595725980205176?s=46

Maybe those organisations who took Stonewall (and Robin White’s) interpretation of the EA2010, need to be paying attention now.

I'm 100% on board with this decision being a result of the FWS SC judgement last year. If the SC rules that things must be done in a required fashion, other courts and tribunals will eventually start aligning with the requirements.

The UK seems unique in its allowance for beliefs about the essence of a person to receive rights and protection at equal or greater relevance than the actual person with such an essence.

What is to stop race realists with the genuinely held belief in genetic race differences from attacking equality provisions? The logical conclusion here isn't great.

borntobequiet · 13/05/2026 19:33

We now see “sex realists” morph seamlessly into “race realists”, and, I daresay, other awful “realists”, a panoply of hideous bigots twisted by their malicious propensity to see the world as it really is rather than according to the precepts of Gender.

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:41

Gosh.... imagine that material reality and understanding material facts is now equivalent to being racist and other general bigotry! Who'da thunk we would see that accusation?

Oh... yeah.... nothing new here.

onepostwonder · 13/05/2026 19:44

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:41

Gosh.... imagine that material reality and understanding material facts is now equivalent to being racist and other general bigotry! Who'da thunk we would see that accusation?

Oh... yeah.... nothing new here.

scientific/biologic racism has existed far longer than sex realism. To be fair, I'm not sure sex realists are a part of the greater scientific/biologic sexism culture or not.

solerolover · 13/05/2026 19:44

borntobequiet · 13/05/2026 19:33

We now see “sex realists” morph seamlessly into “race realists”, and, I daresay, other awful “realists”, a panoply of hideous bigots twisted by their malicious propensity to see the world as it really is rather than according to the precepts of Gender.

It's so manipulative and ridiculous. I know Faye is a member of this site and hope she disregards that comment. Imagine equating women who won't undress in the presence of men, in this specific case, a Muslim woman who suffers from PTSD as a result of male sexual violence, with "race realists?" As a black woman, I have to laugh.

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:47

https://x.com/peterdaly/status/2054597795059736753?s=20

Some more from the judgement:

148 The Supreme Court did not decide whether or not that same definition of 'men' and 'women' applies to the Workplace Regulations. However, this issue was considered by the High Court case of R on the application of the Good Law Project and others v EHRC [2026] EWHC 279 (Admin). In that case, the claimants sought judicial review of the legality of the EHRC's guidance (first published on EHRC's website on 25 April 2025 as part of an interim update and later removed from the website on 15 October 2025) (the "Interim Update"). The Interim Update concerned the Supreme Court's judgment in For Women Scotland that was handed down on 16 April 2025.

149 Mr Justice Swift concluded at paragraph 45 of his judgment that:

"Given the conclusion reached by the Supreme Court in For Women Scotland on the meaning of "woman" and "man" in the EA 2010 [the Equality Act 2010], any contrary reading of the same words in the 1992 Workplace Regulations would make the application of paragraph 2 of schedule 22 to the EA 2010 certainly less coherent, and likely impossible.

150 Mr Justice Swift noted in relation to the Act and the Workplace Regulations:

"26 It is wrong to believe that either the EA 2010 or the 1992 Workplace Regulations provides a comprehensive code on when or in what form lavatories or other facilities must be provided or who may or must use them. The parts of the EA 2010 considered in the Interim Update concerned when it would be permissible for a service provider to make a single-sex provision. It does not exclude or prohibit other provision. Similarly, although the 1992 Workplace Regulations do prescribe a requirement for "suitable and sufficient" lavatories, and also make express provision for what will amount to "suitable" by reference to separate provision for men and women, they do not prohibit additional provision beyond what is "sufficient".

27 Each set of statutory provisions considered in the Interim Update provides a floor for provision of facilities. But neither provides a ceiling. It is fanciful to believe that these laws seek to regulate every possibility that can arise, day-to-day, and in circumstances that are too numerous to anticipate. Some public discourse is stated in terms of whether a person has a "right" to use a particular lavatory. If that is intended to refer to legal right, it is a bizarre turn of phrase. Those who provide facilities whether to the public or to their employees should comply with the law but also be guided by common sense and benevolence rather than allow themselves to be blinkered by unyielding ideologies.

151 Mr Justice Swift went on to state that an employer would comply with Regulation 20 of the Workplace Regulations if they adopted and applied a policy that female lavatories were available only to 'biological women' (and a similar policy regarding male lavatories being available only to 'biological men'):

"40 If the obligation under regulation 20 is as I have concluded, an employer who provides the lavatories required in the rooms required, and who in good faith adopted and applied a policy that the female lavatories were available only to biological women and the male ones only available to biological men, would do what is required by the Regulations. The employees concerned would know what was expected of them. Contrary to the Claimants' submission, this is not to say that an employer's compliance with regulation 20 will depend on the "minutia" of how the use of lavatories is managed. The notion that an employer or anyone else is required to "police" the use of a lavatory, person by person and day by day, reveals the application of a "logic" so strict that it is divorced from reality and from any sensible model of human behaviour.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/05/2026 19:48

solerolover · 13/05/2026 19:44

It's so manipulative and ridiculous. I know Faye is a member of this site and hope she disregards that comment. Imagine equating women who won't undress in the presence of men, in this specific case, a Muslim woman who suffers from PTSD as a result of male sexual violence, with "race realists?" As a black woman, I have to laugh.

Edited

As is evidenced regularly on this board and irl, the desperation of men to access the undressed bodies of girls and women has no limits. They will clutch at any straw, appropriate any cause, no matter how offensive, to get their wishes.

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:51

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/2054597795059736753?s=20

Thanks GLP!!

194 We concluded that it was reasonable for Allegation 1 to have the Proscribed Effect on the claimant both because of her sex and because of her gender critical belief. The key reasons for our decision are:

194.1 the Supreme Court's decision in For Women Scotland clarified the
definitions of 'men' and 'women' in the Act and in the Workplace Regulations (as interpreted by Mr Justice Swift in R on the application of the Good Law Project) as referring to their biological sex. Both of those decisions are binding on this Tribunal. The result of this caselaw is that an employer who permits trans women to use the women's toilets in effect no longer provides single sex facilities for women as defined Regulation 20(c) of the Workplace Regulations. The employer would then have to show that they provided sufficient lockable facilities in separate rooms;

Peter Daly (@peter_daly) on X

Somewhat ironic that @GoodLawProject’s quixotic JR against the EHRC’s non-binding website update (which previewed non-binding and still not in force guidance) only succeeded in generating binding authority *against* GLP’s cause.

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/2054597795059736753?s=20

onepostwonder · 13/05/2026 19:52

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/05/2026 19:48

As is evidenced regularly on this board and irl, the desperation of men to access the undressed bodies of girls and women has no limits. They will clutch at any straw, appropriate any cause, no matter how offensive, to get their wishes.

Sex realists would probably have more cultural support if they weren't always assigning sexual and/or violent motivations to trans people.

Helleofabore · 13/05/2026 19:53

onepostwonder · 13/05/2026 19:44

scientific/biologic racism has existed far longer than sex realism. To be fair, I'm not sure sex realists are a part of the greater scientific/biologic sexism culture or not.

Edited

I think that it is hypocritical for you to accuse anyone of being part of a biologic sexism culture. But you do you.

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