Looking for a gym with female-only changing rooms by sex: a journey

[2021x]

I am trying to find a gym in my city (not UK) that excludes males from the female showering and changing rooms.

I was in my gym and there was a man in the changing room- no attempt to be female other than a sports-bra- and since then I was just stressed everytime I went.

I have emailed a gym who say they are trans-inclusive on a case by case basis and said I should use the accessiblity changing room if I am uncomfortable.

I have also put up a post on Reddit in the local page - that got auto-moderated, and then the same post on the national page that is going through normal moderation.

My post says this

I am looking for XXXX gyms that have female‑only changing and shower areas that are restricted by sex, not self‑identified gender.

I’m comfortable sharing these spaces with other females, but I’m not comfortable changing or showering in areas where males may be present.

If you know of any gyms in XXXX please sent me a direct message.

Wish me luck.

apologies, I forgot the link to the study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21364939/

Absolutely.
But in addition, that sentence about 'sub group demographics matter in terms of offending' is another example of something that is so vague as to mean nothing.
So: yes, there are different offending patterns within different different social groups, and this will affect the use of police resources; and may also affect sentencing of individuals. It will not affect the actual legislation applying to every individual, 'without fear or favour'.

There were legally-operating organisations in the UK that only admitted boring old women or girls without penises, though, pre 2025. Not many, but none of them had successfully been forced through legal means (as opposed to financial/repetitional means) to admit men. I'm thinking Beira's Place, there was a women's holiday organisation, and basically every girls' school in the UK. It was the GDST policy as soon as they wrote it down.

If the EA2010 said that men and boys who identified as women or girls were allowed in those spaces, you can bet your bottom dollar that some bloke, or some boy's parents, would have sued to get in. Instead, as soon as the law was tried in the highest court, it was clarified that it meant, and has always meant, biological women and girls.

I think you're going to find it hard to define "effeminate", but many gay men are not effeminate and likewise many "transwomen" are as far as you can possibly get from effeminate.

Oh dear.

Glad I’m not the Borg 😂😂😂

I think it's a shame we've got deflected from the OP's original question by someone whose only aim is to tie us up in the same old arguments we've had a million times. Someone whose naming convention (female first name + other element) follows the same pattern as a number of other transactivist posters, and is therefore probably the same person.

Someone whose initials or first name appears to be ANG, which probably doesn't help much.

Either way, couldn't we just ignore this person, who is just here to make mischief?

Yeah that's pretty much it isn't it?

thing is @EmilyinEverton

I’m female and in my life I have never felt threatened, been assaulted or raped by wrinkled female skin. In fact, I don’t see female wrinkled or saggy skin as a threat at all.

I have, however, been assaulted, followed by a stranger and wanked over. I have also been attacked and nearly strangled, I have been groped, leered at and punched in the head. All the perpetrators were biological males.

Wrinkled female skin = no risk
Men = potential risk of all of the above.

Transwomen are men so are included in the 97%. They do.

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I live in one of those US states people are fleeing from due to genocidal violence (using the correct facilities for one's sex and not changing biological sex on government paperwork) and the law hasn't changed anything. They're still in our restrooms and changing rooms because chain businesses are too afraid of negative social media campaigns getting their franchise taken away, and small businesses are afraid of review bombing. Opening up third spaces have been great for trans-identifying women and people who get itchy teeth using either sexed restroom, but the males refuse.

I hope you find somewhere, but don't count on official policy meaning anything. Use a few day passes before spending your money on a membership.

According to that link there was a study that looked at the difference in crime in what they classify as public accommodations (hotels, bars, restaurants, etc.) between locations that had policies requiring accommodation of people according to self declared gender identity and locations that did not have such policies.

This disingenuous at best. In being used in this way it's clearly an attempt to hide whether women are more victimized when men are allowed to id into traditionally single-sex female spaces.

There are all sorts of crimes in public accommodations. Comparatively few will be about sexual assault and harassment, or voyeurism in toilets or other women only spaces (ESPECIALLY where women are told that complaining about men who identify as female is itself bigoted and against the rules as such policies frequently do). So any change in such incidents, even if reported, would be swallowed up in the larger data pool of fraud, theft, fights and sexual assaults outside of women only spaces that will make up the vast majority of crime in the locations and will be unaffected by a self-id policy. It doesn't tell us anything about whether or not single-sex spaces are safer for women than single self-ID gender spaces.

I'm not in the mood for pigeon chess, but isn't it astoundingly homophobic to say that gay men have effeminate bodies? Not merely behaviour (which is also a ridiculous claim to make about the group as a whole), but their actual bodies. That they are physically not fully male.

I thought that nonsense went out with skull measuring.

Women need to start lawsuits. That tends to focus minds.

Ah yes, thanks for reminding us - it’s an important point.

There are a number of examples of judges letting trans identifying men (or ‘transwomen’ as you said) walk free instead of jailing them so the figures for incarcerated sex offenders who are trans identifying males will appear lower than it actually is. It is already quite a bit higher than other men.

There are also reports that trans identifying men in female prisons have had sex in the communal spaces, stared at women in the showers and sexually harassed them with little or no sanction. In a couple of documented cases, the woman complaining has been punished. This particular chap (below) has finally been put back in a men’s prison after sexually assaulting a woman in prison.

And it also doesn’t count the men that would have been charged with crimes like voyeurism or indecent exposure in places where if a man claims a trans identity the crime is overlooked and the woman told to ‘be more inclusive’ (or other such nonsense).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glne43101o?app-referrer=deep-link

As a part of the cohort of men - yes they do

This site is basically all about Schrödinger's body. Actual bodies matter when they matter and don't when they don't. The post is homophobic. It's just not worth pointing out on mumsnet.

Name change? Or are you just good friends with Aisha176?

Neither the equality act nor the actual law has been changed. It was never permitted under the law.

No it didn't. I would advise you to take anything Jolyon Maugham says with a large bucket of salt. He's been known to tell the odd fib.

I already have upthread. Excerpt:

"Among females, lesbians (including only a few females with exclusively homosexual preferences) were generally more criminal and violent than heterosexuals, although they were still less so than males (except for homosexual males)"

I never said it was tested but the judge did make the comment that there was a case for discrimination not to be upheld.

In terms of discrimination against women, yes they can make a case for it but again it's no slam dunk yet.

So, the general expectation is that all male people commit sexual offences at a much higher rate than incarceration.
Why then do you and others expect that male people with a transgender identity are not committing sex offences at the same rate as the rest of the male population and not being reported or imprisoned.

Speculation isn't evidence not to mention the statistical insignificance of the trans population doesn't allow for any meaningful conclusions.

It is actually irrelevant whether one group of male people commit sex offences at a slightly less rate than other male people. Safeguarding policy is based on risk profiles for whole categories of people that can be defined such as sex category.

Something being "policy" isn't a justification for continuing injustice.

You conveniently left out the most salient point:

"Among females, lesbians (including only a few females with exclusively homosexual preferences) were generally more criminal and violent than heterosexuals, although they were still less so than males (except for homosexual males)"

Your'e welcome.

Great, you agree that a majority of sexual offences are committed by males towards females in private spaces which includes public toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards

No I don't agree because the data doesn't. Most sexual offences are perpetrated by someone known to the victim in their own or perps home or in the workplace. Public toilets, change rooms & hospitals don't rate probably because they are usually very busy places making it an unlikely environment. If people who demand private spaces were at all serious about safety they would demand segregated work places & chaperoning at all other times, you know where realistically abuse happens.

"Would you also agree that it is then impossible for a female to be able to tell the difference between a transgender woman and a sexual offender as sexual offenders are males that enter female spaces, therefore causing discomfort and fear for the female that can only be avoided by the exclusion of males from private female spaces?"

Like when in the workplace or on a date? Next.

Can you please stop with this. The evidence you linked to yourself showed that this isn't true.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02902-9/figures/2

And telling men that claim they have a particular sense of self that they need to stay out of women's spaces just like all other men is not an 'injustice' ffs.