Concern about Plaid Cymru and women’s single-sex spaces in Wales

[GreenEyedFeminist]

Plaid Cymru is leading in the polls and could team up with The Greens. This will be a disaster for women in Wales. Plaid have been instrumental in pushing for policies that dismantle women’s rights to single-sex spaces and sports. The Plaid Manifesto is very vague on what it will actually do for women (like implementing the Supreme Court Ruling - Welsh politicians are very fond of the phrase Waiting for Guidance) but very specific on the subject of trans rights… full implementation of the Wales LGBTQ+ Action Plan is promised - that means males self-identifying into women’s spaces and sports. On the rare occasions when Rhun ap Iorwerth is questioned he says it’s ’a fringe issue’ 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’m really worried atm.

But nothing resembling self id is within the powers devolved to the Welsh senedd.

So i think it will be number 1, @BeMoreBear . There might be beautiful words of support for the TRAs and perhaps a "There's nothing we can do, our hands are tied by the UK government", but they won't be able to pass any law that results in self id.

Any movement in the direction of self id would be capitalised on by the Reform opposition. The average voter is unlikely to support full-blown GI. Why would Plaid risk alienating them, and also the significant part of their core voters that come from rural, farming, more socially conservative communities? Hopefully Plaid have got enough political instincts to understand that.

So yes I doubt they'll have the appetite to waste political goodwill on self id

I agree. It's not within their competence to do this and they can't have forgotten what happened when Scotland tried to do the same thing. I really don't think Plaid would risk something the Westminster government could block as it did the Scottish GRR bill.

I totally agree with this.

I probably rambled too much in my previous post, but basically the point I was trying to make was that any of the manifesto commitments made that would mean not implementing the Supreme Court FWS judgment, or introducing processes that breach UK law or legislating, now can't happen because:

1 The maths don't work, particularly if the remaining Labour members follow the UK government line.
2 The optics will be terrible and would certainly detrimental to the TQ+ identifying people - although I can't see Reform not taking advantage of any issue they feel they can mock Plaid about, including ridiculing them for believing that people can change sex or that women can have a penis.
3 It can't work legally anyway - which would make Rhun look incompetent - and would be a complete waste of already stretched funding. Scottish Government spent around £1.28million on the legal battles along. God knows how much was also spent on multiple consultations, plenary and committee time, printing and staff costs that accompanied the process. How much would a Plaid government be prepared to waste on a futile and discredited proposal?

Ignoring the Cass Review and setting up a youth gender service along the lines being proposed is also off the cards, if they are a serious and responsible government.

What puzzles me is how they are going to cope with the inevitable backlash and sense of betrayal from some very vulnerable and volatile activists (inside and outside Plaid) who have in effect been promised the moon on a stick. As an outsider, until I saw the manifesto pages the OP posted, I'd assumed that expectations were being managed and a line agreed but p62 sticks out like a sore thumb. They have other more important priorities, but this could all come back and bite them on the bottom.

Sadly he wasn't reelected.

The only 'steering clear' I'm aware of Sioned Williams doing is avoiding engaging with lesbians and other women and constituents who have contacted her on this issue. She used to reply with dismissive, standard TWAW replies, but for the last couple of years I've only heard of women getting absolutely no reply at all.

If you google her name+trans, search her X or Insta you can see that she's posted extensively on 'trans rights', and also denigrated women (and men) who have raised concerns. She posts videos with 'My pronouns are SHE/HER' in large font at the top and recognises every trans-related awareness day or development. She hosted Pink News receptions at the Senedd, and I'm sure if you searched Y Cofnod you'd find plenty she's said in the Siambr. I don't know whether she's so militant because she's gullible and naive, or if her internalised misogyny is so ingrained that she automatically thinks the worst of women (especially older lesbians) and will therefore believe young activists whose belief system has no basis in material reality. She's known to have actively discouraged fellow MSs from attending events organised by women's groups because they are sex-realist and according to her therefore transphobic.

I'm not a Plaid insider, but I have often voted for them and I've talked to a lot of insiders (or ex-insiders because some have resigned over this). Sian Gwenllian is apparently just as unwilling to entertain any other possible point of view and a few of those elected for the first time also have form.

Anyone who was a Plaid candidate in the 2021 Senedd elections has had compulsory training from Gendered Intelligence of all people. When WRNers asked Becca Martin do you believe that women deserve single sex-based spaces she answered "No". Anothr new north Wales MS, Beca Brown travelled a considerable distance to attend a demonstration against the Supreme Court judgment and gave quotes to the press about it. Any harassment or victimisation of these women is obviously unacceptable, but they seem to have a very tenuous grasp of equality law and evidence. When Plaid Cymru were asked by Merched Cymru for comments on their views on women's rights and the SC judgment back in March, the reply from the Chief of Staff switched to talking about trans rights in the middle of the first sentence. It was woeful.

Will they suddenly set aside what appear to be very strong, one-sided personal convictions that not giving vulnerable minorities exactly what they demand - no matter the consequence to themselves or other protected groups - is 'hateful'? Or will they take a deep breath and think critically?

@EnfysPreseli thank you - incredible post. Disheartening, but eye opening and huge food for thought.

So Rhun ap Iorwerth thinks an issue that affects the public access, safety and dignity of more than half the population is a fringe issue? Someone needs to stop him thinking that and - since Plaid are now the largest party - I foresee, hopefully, WWRN taking him to court as FWS took the SNP.

Anyone who was a Plaid candidate in the 2021 Senedd elections has had compulsory training from Gendered Intelligence of all people.

Wow! You couldn't make it up...

If they don't bring forward legislation immediately it's going to be quite a while - years - before there'll be anything to take them to Court for. Maybe there'll be something on the policy side, but that would be softer stuff (still insidious and wrong). I can't see them wanting such a showdown in their first term in Government. They'd lose, waste loads of money and we'd have to put money into it as well. Better for them and us if they drop those commitments and have a fresh start. This is all a hangover from Adam Price's term as leader.

It'll be interesting to see who has responsibility for the relevant cabinet portfolios, and what Rhun does when the EHRC Code of Practice is published. He has said he respects the SC judgment but the UK government's dilly-dallying has allowed Plaid and Welsh Labour to delay any sort of resolution. They need to grow up and offer reassurance to TQ+ers who think they've lost rights and that everybody hates them, not generate more anxiety and anger.

First can I just say @EnfysPreseli I love the username.

I do hope that they have the sense to concentrate on schools and the NHS more broadly and quietly kick the issue of the gender clinic for kids down the road. I have raised the issue in an email with one of the successfully elected female Plaid candidates locally, prior to polling day. She answered my other query but did not respond to the “gender” part but I hope I drew her attention to some of the bonkersness in the manifesto because I suspect some of the people were recruited on other issues rather than having in depth knowledge of all the policies.

Thank you @EnfysPreseli for these very informative posts

This is all a hangover from Adam Price's term as leader.
I had no idea about this. I remember Adam Price as coming across more intelligent than that. I was wrong it seems

Well Adam Price was fully TWAW UNTIL he and his same sex partner used a surrogate to help them start a family. I am certain that when it affected him as a gay man he didnt waste time considering transwomen as surrogates but when its only affecting women biology is not worth considering.

That's a shame, because Andrew T Davis was. 🫤

I'm starting to feel more than a little antsy about who ends up in the Cabinet and in what roles. If the spokesperson roles from before the election have any bearing on Rhun's choices we will be lumbered with Sioned Williams in the Social Justice and Equalities (six) Cabinet Secretary role.

I can't imagine her changing her perspective overnight. The usual suspects on the Welsh Government LGBTQ+ Action Plan Advisory Group will have tried to influence her over recent months. She doesn't appear to grasp complexities or respect the law. It would be a nightmare for sex-realist organisations, and any MSs (especially backbenchers) interested in evidence-based policy making. The EHRC in Wales still hasn't grasped that it's a regulator not a campaign megaphine for some activists so I don't know how much we can expect from them.

Pity we have to wait to find out. I'm expecting the worst.

I've just found my way to the EHRC Wales website and its front page makes interesting reading with its determination to make the Welsh Government comply with its Public Sector Equality Duty. What's said here will apply just as clearly to the new Plaid-led government.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/commission-wales

Apart from the Free School Meals decision, there's not much info available online about the specific PSED breaches this agreement is concerned with. There've been several sex-based rights policy developments where there's been a lot of criticism about the quality or absence of EIAs (Gender Quotas Bill, LGBTQ+Action Plan, trans inclusion action plan etc). I'd be interested to know what the actual report says. It's strange that the letter and press release is very vague about the details. I don't think this has had much attention in the media. I may have missed it in November though.

Sioned Williams has been made Deputy First Minister.

Yes. And Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and Equality as well unfortunately. Jane Hutt was bad enough.

I wonder whether Sioned Williams will continue on the same trajectory as before. Legal action will probably be a regular occurrence if so.

Some of the other appointments are interesting. Anyone got any intel on the views of other Cabinet members?

Sioned Williams is a total disaster in that role. I'd allowed myself a faint smidgen of hope knowing that Jane Hutt would no longer be in post but Sioned is likely to be even worse - new ideological broom determinedly sweeping all before her. Bugger.

Indeed she could be hopeless, but there are a lot of opportunities here. We are going to going to win it just will be a long fight.

The interesting point will first be when Labour drop the single sex guidance later this month and what Plaid's reaction is. If they don't alter official Welsh advice they set themselves up for legal challenge.

If they try to avoid admitting reality a key point will be when someone finally takes a Welsh institution to court over this. It is going to happen sooner or later. The thing is a win is near guaranteed. We just need people brave enough to step up. Solid chance we get support from JKR and Sex Matters.

We CAN all help speed this along by supporting sex realist groups and doing more stuff ourselves. If Plaid try to duck out we can make a fuss by writing letters asking questions etc. We just need to threaten legal action a lot more. Send more letters. Get more of a campaign going. Obvious key points girls toilets in Welsh schools and the number of Leisure centres without women's changing rooms or the Welsh NHS. Women's Rights Network Wales have gathered a tonne of data.

Also there is a very good chance that Laura Anne Jones will be the Reform equalities person or prominent in another way. She is very focused on this. This should help us get way more publicity. Reform vs Plaid on whether women exist is WAY more interesting media story now than it was a week ago.

Also note the Welsh Local elections are May 2027. This could be a very live issue if we play it right.

So we can attack local councils for failing to support women. Solid chance we can get Welsh Labour to panic about their choices and flip like Scottish Labour.

I agree that there are a lot of opportunities. The key drivers of Welsh Labour's previous position on this are now gone. Despite the foot dragging and a few dissenters, UK Labour's official position has changed substantially. If the remaining Labour MSs now fall into line with Westminster Labour it will help.

I hope we won't have to rely too much on Laura Anne from now on. She doesn't come across well. Whoever prepares her speaking notes is too wordy and she stumbles over questions even though she's reading them out. Helen Jenner is a much more effective performer and there may be other women who come across well.

Hopefully the Conservative group will also continue to call out Plaid's naivety. I have more faith in them than in Reform, partly because of the UKIP/Brexit Party's previous Senedd performance, and no doubt my own dislike of Reform..

There are also sex-realists within the Plaid group, both backbenchers and a small number in the Cabinet. It'll be interesting to see whether there is a shift now that they're in power. Of course they'd lose if it comes to legal action, but that's surely something that's best avoided. It's a waste of everybody's time and money and detrimental to social justice and community cohesion.

Plaid Cymru and the previous Labour Welsh Government may think they were championing 'trans rights' with their complete capitulation to the LGBTQQIA++ Advisory Group and hangers-on, but their posturing has actually done untold damage to some very vulnerable people and fed anger and anxiety on both sides. Part of the reason for this is because good people did nothing. They thought it was a fringe issue that they didn't need to bother thinking about. The current situation was totally avoidable and this is probably their last chance to pivot a bit to a more legally (and clinically and morally) coherent position.

Great summary.

It will be a real waste of time to have to go to court, BUT I think the threat of it happening should sharpen minds inside Plaid. Those outside can definitely push things along.

The massive victory in FayeRCTribunal should be triggering warning sounds.

As you say Plaid will have a chance to be sensible. Or they can go down a route which will end in failure.

Right now the what is a women question is just embarrassing for Plaid, but the simple fact is now they have power it becomes way more relevant for Reform and it will be politics on easy mode. It can be a wedge issue which can undermine everything Plaid wants to do. Furthermore the topic also helps Reform target the Greens elsewhere in the UK.

Obviously it also can help the Conservatives as you say. We will see how things play out.