Concern about Plaid Cymru and women’s single-sex spaces in Wales

[GreenEyedFeminist]

Plaid Cymru is leading in the polls and could team up with The Greens. This will be a disaster for women in Wales. Plaid have been instrumental in pushing for policies that dismantle women’s rights to single-sex spaces and sports. The Plaid Manifesto is very vague on what it will actually do for women (like implementing the Supreme Court Ruling - Welsh politicians are very fond of the phrase Waiting for Guidance) but very specific on the subject of trans rights… full implementation of the Wales LGBTQ+ Action Plan is promised - that means males self-identifying into women’s spaces and sports. On the rare occasions when Rhun ap Iorwerth is questioned he says it’s ’a fringe issue’ 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’m really worried atm.

True. I agree with you. It staggers me how all our politicians don’t see the depth of feeling on this though.

Exactly. I don't think he believes any of it. AFAIK he has never said anything like TWAW or any of the other true believer nonsense. Appearing to be on the fence is as far as he can go without being thrown out of the party. He must be all too aware of what happened to Helen Mary Jones.

The party loons probably insisted on the stuff going into the manifesto, and he probably thought he could handwave it away if asked as a 'fringe issue' or 'not what people are voting on'. The problem is, this just makes him look weak, as if he's not really leading the party.

I wish I could understand why so many people seem to have lost their minds over this issue.

Totally disenchanted with the mess that is Labour here, I had set my mind on voting for Plaid. I strongly disagree with the idea of Welsh independence, so this was a big ask for me.

However, on researching I found out more on their attitude towards women and this is one of my red lines.

I too am one of the politically homeless. What a mess! The debates were an embarrassment too. I’m devastated that some were televised across the UK : total shambles.

As opposed to a party winning a massive overall majority with the votes of a quarter of the electorate which is the case right now in UK general elections. Coalition tends towards moderation in general. If Plaid want to implement their more crackpot ideas it's the job of coalition partners to block them. It would be a popular stance if nothing else.

Ah ok, thanks. I knew I was in the Welsh thread but didn't realise you'd switched over! 🙄

My one saving thought here is that Iorweth is keeping a very low profile on this one compared to his predecessors - Leanne Wood and Adam Price were very vocal and pushy about this issue in their time and yes, Helen Mary Jones suffered because of it. I know many of PC’s reps and they secretly don’t believe in Gender. I truly hope and pray that they will respect the decision of Supreme Court on this one.

The new system means that 5 and 6 seats on the list might be decided by only a few votes. So to keep Reform and Plaid in check and keeping the Greens out means I am thinking carefully. If Welsh Labour were behind women existing like Scottish Labour are now they would probably get my vote. Right now I am thinking Tory. I would be tempted to vote for a small party only for me keeping the Greens down is a priority. The Scottish Greens show the danger of letting them in they were bad for women and for Scottish politics in general. I fear a Plaid Green coalition.

One big worry is even if under Rhun Plaid are not full on trans stuff they won't clean house. So the Cardiff gender clinic which will continue to do all sorts of dodgy stuff possibly under Plaid same with schools.

Cleaning house will be a big test.

I don't know what happened to Leanne Wood, because I used to like her a lot and she had a pragmatic streak that you don't often find with very left wing politicians. I have no idea how she got to be so fanatical on this one point, but it all seemed to come in under her leadership.

My impression of Rhun is that he travels light ideologically, but that might just mean he's a Swinney more than a Sturgeon - not personally all in, but he can be pushed around by those who care more than he does. And it all depends on the arithmetic - my hunch is that a Plaid-Labour coalition would just be the same old same old, but a Plaid-Green coalition could really go crazy.

I'm really worried about women's rights if Reform gets in. They want us all in the kitchen (but don't support working from home!).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/reform-uk-nigel-farage-equality-act-pregnant-women-maternity-b2967253.html?fbclid=IwdGRjcARoHwVjbGNrBGge-mV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHpK4sw6T0Ud26RyXvDzUoajazEdIxs2Jprb0KA-0mQ5vDgAzqMtYNV3wdV7T_aem_tlCDMGC-79Oe8dUDrRlY1w

If Reform gets in and they scrap the Equality Act the UK will descend into the dark ages. It will be the Age of the Incels and the Racists.

"Reform has said it would introduce a new “Workplace Fairness Act”, saying it would “restore fairness, protect women, and rebuild public trust in the law by treating people as individuals rather than separating them into competing groups”.

But this is not worth mentioning then. 🤔

"It comes after analysis conducted by the Labour Party estimated that as..."

Oh a reliable and unbiased source then. 🤯

Scaremongering much. 😱

Ah yes, get rid of the anti-discrimination legislation, and then pussy-foot around for a few years while men put women in their place before introducing new legislation which protects Reform supporters against discrimination, or something.

I am very worried, too. Hopefully UK Labour will hold their nerve and not call a general election.

Let's face it, many people would love it if pregnant women could be sacked with no consequences for the employer. Reform gives these types a voice and they are highly motivated to vote.

What legislation, the one that says a women is a female only, the one that every governments, every organisation in the public sector. every party on the left and every quango IS IGNORING, that legislation you mean. The one the governments is pussy footing around while they wait for guidance, sure worth having that legislation then.

Well, as long as you're happy having no right to any maternity leave at all, obviously no maternity pay at all, no time off work for ante-natal appointments, no right to be paid the same as a man doing the same job as you, the employer free not to offer you the job or not to promote you just because you're a woman, to sack you because you're a woman or because you get pregnant or might get pregnant, no right not to be sexually harassed at work. There's more just to do with being a woman, and I haven't even started on race / colour / nationality discrimination, discrimination on the grounds of religious belief or for believing in something like sex realism, discrimination because you're too old or too young, discrimination because you have any kind of disability, discrimination because you're gay, etc. ALL THAT WILL GO.

And you know that how, are you physic or clairvoyant, or have you just decided that's what going to happen based on no evidence whatsoever.
Someone at the back shouted bogeyman, bogeyman so you jumped off the cliff, like all the other lemmings.
Stop shilling for the fantasy brigade and deal with the dangers that are clear, present and evidenced.

Reform have said that they will repeal (get rid of) the Equality Act. Some vague words about new legislation they've given no thought to whatever is not reassuring. All those things I mentioned to you, and much more, are in the Equality Act, which is a highly complex piece of law. They will disappear overnight if that one piece of legislation is repealed, which Reform have said they will do. Women are the big beneficiaries of the Equality Act. If this happens, life will get much much worse for women, probably very quickly. Older people will also be very badly affected, as will disabled people and non-white British people.

I head it myself, on the radio. There's a fact for you. Suella Braverman, Reform's equality spokesperson, said the Equality Act will be repealed on day one if Reform win the next general election. And she said that she would immediately abolish her own job position of what would then be "Equality Minister" (because there would be no interest in equality - any attempt at equality would be over).

"Half a million pregnant women could lose workplace protections each year under Reform UK’s plans to scrap the Equality Act, new analysis has shown, with charities and campaign groups warning that plans would “wipe out decades of progress”.
In February, the party’s equality spokesperson Suella Braverman unveiled plans to repeal the act “on day one” if it wins the next election, claiming that Britain is being “ripped apart by diversity, equality and inclusion” policies.
The Equality Act 2010 – which replaced previous anti-discrimination laws with a single act – legally protects those with protected characteristics, including pregnancy and maternity, from discrimination in the workplace and in wider society. It makes it unlawful to fire, harass, or disadvantage women because they are pregnant, have a pregnancy-related illness, or are on maternity leave."

That article focuses on pregnancy protections, but there's a lot more to the legislation and women owe an enormous amount to it.

You could say that about the Green Party too.

I spent ages looking for the candidate who most aligns with my sex realistic view and came up with this one. Dr Altaf Hussain

https://www.conservatives.wales/news/welsh-conservatives-call-lgbtq-action-plan-be-scrapped

Turns out I have to vote for the party not the candidate, so conservative it is then. Not one other candidate seems to be a sex realist at least publicly.

I didn't think I was a conservative voter but I really hope this man gets a place at the senedd to advocate for women and girls.

I know the dust is still settling and we don't know the precise details of how Plaid are going to govern, but it looks likely that it'll be a minority government with support negotiated with other parties to get any controversial issues through.

I think this makes it less likely that they'll get very far with some of the TA manifesto commitments; and if they do choose to stick to them it will get nasty in the Siambr and outside it because of Reform and Conservative (and possibly Labour if they follow the UK Lab official line), angry women and legal challenges.

Interested in others' opinions on what might happen next. I know a few of the rabid Plaid TWAWers have been elected or re-elected, but there are also quite a few who have a better grasp of reality who should have some influence. What do we think will happen on implementation of the SC judgment and self-ID, and is it better to campaign publicly on it, or is it better not to poke the bear?

Now they're the government maybe more people will get to hear more about the unhinged part of the party. If Reform challenge them on any batshit motions, and make a big fuss about it, the more PC will be forced to explain their stand on some issues, like men can be women if they want, just because!

Are you talking about Plaid back benchers?

I think one big difference would be that anyone coming out with the old "transwomen are women, transmen are men and non-binary people are valid" line or who tries to accuse anyone of being phobic or fueling culture wars (as the old Welsh Government and Plaid MSs like Sioned Williams and Siân Gwenllian have done in the past) will get ridiculed by Reform and the Conservatives.

My question was more about policy priorities in government (such as the youth gender service) and the legislative programme (like self-ID), as well as more positive things like setting the tone for an accurate interpretation of the SC judgment for duty bearers.

I would guess that Plaid will do one of two things:

1. either they won't rock the boat too much by trying to bring in highly controversial policies all at once, or too soon, because they will get shot down by every other party, if only because it's a 'Plaid policy' - so they'll play it safe, build up to the controversy

or

2.they will come out, guns blazing, with all sorts of controversial policies, hoping that there are so many of them, their opposition won't be able to stop all of them

I'm leaning towards number 1 because for an entire generation, we have had 'safe' Labour in charge, and Plaid won't want to scare the horses. Softly softly can also be quietly devious. We must be vigilant, because if Plaid thinks they can bring in something resembling self ID without us noticing, they will.

They will need to work with more than one of the other parties, because Lib Dems and Green even combined don't have enough seats, as I understand. No way will Plaid work out in the open with Reform, and I think Labour will (publicly at least) try to scupper everything Plaid proposes, just because they can.

So it will all be back room shenanigans, and policies decided on before the public even hear about them. Fait accompli. We must be vigilant,

@EnfysPreseli interesting that you say that - genuine question - when did MS Sioned Williams come out with that? As far as I’m aware, she’s stayed clear of the gender debate?

FWIW, I don’t think that they’ll address this issue at all - there is a major battle ahead with sorting out our NHS and Education in Wales. I truly think PC know they have one chance of getting this right before the Welsh public (as Nationalistic as some of us are) lose faith in false promises pretty sharpish. I think all energies will be focused on sorting out our devolved policies ~starting with restructuring the NHS and doing away with so many bloody managers~