Make it make sense

[bonfireoftheverities]

Sorry for the thread title – almost all of them could be called this.

Over on r/transgenderUK:
"The hate is largely institutional. The government is against us, the NHS doesn't want to help us..."

I see this so often. How in god's name is it possible that they are blind to the way the government and NHS have been bending over backwards for them? Just how?

I do know the difference, (one's entirely made up bonkers claptrap and one's the material reality of the human race, not to mention about 90% of all life forms on Earth).
Do you know how many 'trans'IDing males are claiming to have finished their 'trans' and are now female (all of them), perhaps you should be lecturing them about knowing the difference. Good luck with that, I found talking to them is like taking to a brick wall, maybe you'll have better luck.

Some of them are on social media, drop them a post anything.

Oh yes. I did. So now I’ve spoken to a transperson, who actually moved me from an extreme #bekind position to a serious women’s rights activist… what now? You can’t accuse me of not talking to transpeople and listening to them so now what?

@TransParentlyAnnoyed and then there were all his friends who made it their mission to ostracise me from my friend groups because of my “transphobia”. Stalking me in the street. Shouting at me. Threatening my job.

telling me that not accepting I was now in a same sex relationship made me a bigot and an unsafe person. Despite him being pre all treatment. So no hormones, no surgery. He was a woman if he said he was and I had to accept it. So you can do one with your “talk to transpeople”. If I hadn’t, I’d still probably be the trans rights ally I was.

Also why talk to trans people about women’s rights? Gay men and lesbians are not required to check that straight people are not uncomfortable before they are considered to have rights, they simply have rights. BAME people don’t have to ask white people’s permission to have rights, Christians and Muslims don’t have to check with atheists before attending their local church or mosque. Women do not need men’s permission to have rights.

I work in GP practices/ NHS and I agree, the wait times to see a specialist service are far too long and even then GPs refuse to engage with that service or decide to withdraw hormones from established adult patients. It's a total lottery whether your GP is sympathetic or not and some patients are being treated awfully.

I'm gender critical and in support of 'single sex' meaning just that, but for adult people with severe gender dysphoria seeking diagnosis or who have their condition managed with hormones/ surgery the NHS provision is incredibly poor and it seems hard to deny some of this is practitioners purposefully choosing not to treat this condition.

Imagine if your (misogynistic) GP didn't believe in menopause, told you to accept your reality and refused to refer you for further tests or engage with your menopause specialist.... that isn't so hard to imagine is it?

Oh, like when women get told endometriosis is all in their head, that painful periods are “just part of being a woman”? Women don’t need to imagine misogynistic doctors. We live with being treated by them. In fact… the UK government is putting plans in place to look at this. So yeah, nice try with that anology.

What is a trans person then?

It has nothing to do with whether a GP is sympathy or not, but whether a GP is knowledgeable or not, some GP's may well have gone down the gender route but there's no medical evidence that it says it works. GP who take the medical evidence seriously, are not refusing to engage with the service, they're taking their job seriously, and not putting patients on a pathway that will lead them to lifelong medication that doesn't work.

But you CAN'T change sex. And in many cases a referral to CAHMS / mental health services or for diagnosis for autism would be far more appropriate than affirming the idea you can change sex.

It is NOT the same as menopause which is indicated by physical changes to the body.

Endometriosis. Also physical and can be identified if you have surgery.

Exactly. A more apt analogy would have been anorexia as that is also dysmorphia. . Doctors do not prescribe weight loss drugs or gastric band surgeries for patients presenting with anorexia, thus affirming their decision, so why would they prescribe drugs and surgery for those claiming to “feel like the other sex? So fr no one has been able to explain why one condition is affirmed and the other not.

Do you think that its acceptable for someone to allocate a gender identity to another person and then insist that they are that gender regardless of their own feelings or beliefs on their gender identity?
If not why do you think its acceptable to call anyone CIS unless they have specifically called themselves that?

Why do I need my 'perspective' on biology 'challenged'? I understand biology.
For the same reason, I don't actually 'need' to 'engage' with trans-identifying males to know that we live in a patriarchy where women's sex-based rights matter. In this context, I don't actually care about the trans-identifed male's lived experience. They can fight their own battles for their very special alleged needs, and desires. And they can live their lives however they wish. As long as it doesnt affect women's rights and child safeguarding.

The reason that many GPs are refusing to be involved in the prescription of cross sex hormones is because under the law they are personally responsible for every medication they prescribe and must fully understand all the risks and consequences of prescribing them for that patient and truthfully nobody knows that and very few GPs have had any training in the prescription of cross sex hormones.
The same applies to ADHD medication and thats why many GPs wont prescribe them even when a specialist has said they are nesscary so you have to get your prescription from a pediatrician or adult specialist consultants.
Trans identifying people aren't being treated any differently from any other patient in this nor are the waiting times for gender services disproportionately higher than other specialisms like orthopedics (average wait time 7 plus years in my area for surgery) or gynaecology (5+years) or even cardiology 4+ years for a referral unless you actually have a heart attack and dont get me started on mental health or asd and adhd diagnosis times, with zero treatment or follow up offered after an ASD diagnosis.

This is not transphobia or just saying i dont believe its system buckling under the strain and not enough therapists to treat those who have extreme emotional distress about their biological reality and a demand for unproven harmful drugs and surgeries being thought of as a right by trans identifying people.
What other conditions can you self diagnose and then demand your treatment of choice from GPs other than transitioning?

This is another aspect of the misuse of language inherent in trans 'rights' activism. They have exactly the same rights as every other human (yes, indeed, trans rights are human rights), and the 'extra' rights under the EA not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender reassignment.
There is no 'right' to be treated like a sacred cast and have every whim catered to. None of us has that 'right'.

I think you are missing my point! Women know there are GPs who are biased/ sexist and that the NHS doesn't have the resources and that the care you get depends on your GPs willingness to learn about menopause, if they will prescribe medicines off-label based on emerging often anecdotal evidence or adopt a strict 'computer says no' approach. Why can't we also acknowledge that people with gender dysphoria can also encounter poor services and bias and (like lots of other people) deserve better health care and are entitled to raise awareness/ complain about the issues that affect them?

And to PP who said people can't change sex, I agree 100%, but for some people with severe gender dysphoria, cross sex hormones are a way of managing their distress and enabling them to live happier lives (assuming less invasive options have been tried and failed). Aside from the MH benefits, for people who've had surgical intervention to remove gonads, exogenous hormones reduce the risk of long term health problems like osteoporosis and cardiovascular disease.

Ah, you've reminded me of one of my favourite examples of it -

www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

@Waitwhat23
Lord almighty. Toddler. Self-absorbed. Idiotic. SO entitled. Are just a few words that come to mind. (I must admit I couldn't bear to read all of it. The total, abject stupidity and privilege of these people is really grating on me).

But isn’t that what stonewall and all the trans charities should have been focussing on? Instead of using all their time, money and energy trying to bully women into giving up their sex based rights, surely a better use of those resources would have been in better healthcare for trans people? Hasn’t there just been a Finnish study showing mental health does not improve after transition in many cases? Maybe that should be investigated? Maybe we should treat gender dysphoria as we treat any other body dysphoria. I mean, we don’t give anorexics weight loss surgeries and we don't cut healthy limbs of those who claim their limbs are not theirs, so why give drugs and surgeries to those with gender dysphoria?

"so why give drugs and surgeries to those with gender dysphoria?"

Because we don't understand what causes gender dysphoria and haven't found a way to 'cure' it. Because for some people who suffer with persistent dysphoria (despite counselling/ autism diagnoses / MH interventions etc) hormones can improve their quality of life and for them the side effects and risks are likely worth it.

There are lots of medical/ MH conditions that aren't fully understood and where managing symptoms with the drugs we currently have available is the best we can do at the moment.

Using medical cannabis in chronic pain/ MS/ epilepsy doesn't cure the condition but gives suffers a better quality of life and eases symptoms and for some patients the risks are worth the benefits.

Anorexia is a poor comparison, affirming anorexia medically/ surgically would likely result in death and has zero chance of improving health or quality of life.

But both are dysmorphia. Why are we affirming one and not the other? If someone is so distressed by their body they will take strong drugs and amputate healthy parts of their body, are they really competent to make those decisions? There are cases of people demanding doctors amputate their healthy limbs as they felt they “should have been born an amputee” and one case where a woman demanded a doctor remove her eyes as she “felt she should be blind”. Should the doctors have acceded to those patients wishes as well? I mean, if they strongly felt that way, in your opinion, were the doctors wrong to refuse? If not, why not?

I'm not a medic but when you say that "Anorexia is a poor comparison, affirming anorexia medically/ surgically would likely result in death and has zero chance of improving health or quality of life", surely all the emerging evidence is that the drugs and surgery that have been cynically sold to the young are doing precisely that?

Actively damaging their health and the long term quality of their life? Which presumably may well lead to their earlier death?

Anorexia seems a very pertinent example surely when talking about the young ?

@Wearenotborg - I wonder that part about the charities and 'allies' all the time.

Like that fool at GLP - making himself a small fortune by bringing endless failing nonsense to court when women say no. All that wasted cash could be spent setting up the support services so crucially needed by young people going through identity traumas, research or people who have faced actual hardship due to their beliefs and who need support.

Women made their own spaces & support systems. TRAs stamping their feet until women to hand over their things is one of the many examples why the trans cause is nothing more than a men's rights movement. Convince me I'm wrong.

Oh I totally agree. And then you think of all the money governments and organisations have wasted on fighting to remove women’s rights and I get so much rage. This whole movement is as you say, a mens rights movement. How often do we hear about transmen? The Supreme Court judgement solidified transmen’s right to abortion and pregnancy healthcare, but it’s considered a loss for trans people. Surely that is a big win?

If you think about it, If trans identified males are unsafe in male spaces, surely trans identified females would be in even more danger. How many TIF have been excluded from sport as they won’t join women’s sports but can’t play in the men’s? How many TIF are taking jobs and places meant for men? Probably none.

Cross sex hormones cause cardiovascular disease and have show zero benefit when it comes to osteoporosis.
People who have gone through gender reassignment surgery are more likely to kill themselves than any other group of people including those with gender dysphoria but no hormone treatment or surgery.
Also no Dr should ever prescribe off lable medication on nothing more than anecdotal evidence its the fastest way to be struck off and face manslaughter/culpable homicide charges oh yeah and get sued