To what extent are we allowed to discuss parallels between cults and gender ideology?

[WitchyWitcherson]

Although harrowing and upsetting, I find cult documentaries fascinating. There are a couple that stand out to me as having really strong parallels to gender ideological beliefs.

Notably (on Netflix if anyone else wants to watch them!):

• Docs on Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) such as Keep Sweet. The phrase and purpose of "Keep Sweet" as used by the Jeffs patriarchs has a lot of similarities with the "Be Kind" narrative that has been peddled to keep people from questioning things.
• The Programme: Cons, Cults and Kidnappings - Episode 2 in particular on vulnerability of desperate parents to looking for easy solutions, then subsequent denial/minimisation of the damages done to their children.
• Twin Flames: They coerce people into medical transition because of a belief in a male or female spirit.

Anyway, these parallels to me are stark, but over the years I've noticed post deletions where people describe gender ideology as cult-like (incidentally in the "The Programme" doc, there was an online forum for parents with kids in the 'school' that deleted all posts criticising the programme...! Talk about more parallels...). So I ask... to what extent are we allowed to discuss these parallels without posts being deleted?

To caveat: I understand not all trans-identified people have homogenous beliefs on sex and gender, and I'm not saying all trans-identified people are part of some cult conspiracy, just that there are aspects to gender ideology and some of the people who are proponents of said ideology adhering to similar behaviours to people who are within cults (shutting down discussion, holding onto beliefs in the face of clear facts and harms, claiming special/"other" status, offering a solution to people's suffering etc. etc.).

I can't imagine why this kind of thread would be deleted, but perhaps I'm being naive.
The only obvious difference between trans ideology and a cult that I can think of offhand is that there isnt an overarching leader/prophet/god/...
The most obvious similarity I'd say is the insistence on cleaving young followers from their families.

Okay well it is obviously not like that now, you can say pretty much what you want about trans people it seems for the most part.

Blimey I didnt know that. Thank you. It's important that those of us who came to this later know the history.

Also deleted were posts with the three letter acronym AGP. We used to refer to people flying in from Malaga instead.

There was a very, very rapid change in what was allowed to stand and what merited deletion - I feel like it happened over the course of the live discussion of the Sandie Peggie tribunal.

Wasn't mention of "AGP" another cause of deletion? Hence the references to Málaga Airport.
And TIM/TIF?

Snap!

There are a lot of things described as a cult on mumsnet : motherhood, Boden, centre parcs, Trump, all without deletion, but gender ideology can’t take it it seems.

The aspect of potentially cult-like behaviour I'm interested in is how otherwise intelligent, educated and forthright people become fearful of any kind of dissent.

I stuck my head above the parapet in my workplace to question a paragraph of misplaced guff about trans/non binary in a scheme aimed at women in STEM. It transpired that every senior member of the dept leadership team agreed with me, but were too scared/weak to say anything until someone else did. These are highly paid, highly educated, highly respected academics whose line of work means they are used to challenging claims, robust disagreement and clear language.

There is something about all online culture which is 'cultish' - the medium facilitates extreme ideologies and makes it easy for them to maintain their extremes by punishing and excluding dissent. It encourages soundbites and simplistic, repetitive mantras and discourages critical thinking. Social media in particular encourages a lot of appeal to charismatic authority figures. I see this in all the leftist omnicause ideas (gender, critical race theory, anti-Israel) to some extent.

Comments insinuating that the motivation for some trans identifying males is a sexual fetish are usually deleted despite the accuracy of the observation.

We definitely were not allowed to mention any similarities between gender identity and cults only a few years ago.

I remember starting a thread with this video from The State Media using the video name 'Is gender Ideology a cult?' as the thread title. It was deleted very promptly by MN, I think it was within about 15 minutes of me posting the thread and only a few people had time to comment before it was zapped.

Nowadays we are able to speak far more freely but it was only a couple of years ago when this board was monitored very closely and certain words/connections (e.g. mentioning AGP, even as an acronym) would lead to posts and threads disappearing.

They have not.

I've been talking about it on her for a number of years and the posts have stood. Even at the height of issues.

The key part is to be very explicit about why and what your concerns are and to heavily caveat.

i think the change occurred around the time of the Supreme Court ruling. It’s was a watershed moment and clarified the law. When we look back at this weird time in history in fifty years, the SC ruling will be the pivotal moment I think.

Is that when you say some or all, though?

Yes I think this is probably the case. Unfortunately some people are so emotional about the subject they cant see when they are overstepping what is quite a clear line.

The clear clear line that some people can't see?

Oh, that clear clear line.

A few years back on here I did a post where I went through Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of thought control/totalising thought processes - he's the guy that came up with the concept of the "thought-terminating cliche" of which "trans women are women" is a perfect example.

If you have a look, you can immediately see parallels with trans rights advocacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

Similar to how Trans Widows are shouted down for 'misappropriating the term' by TRA's but similar use of the term in other contexts (golf, rugby, darts etc) doesn't draw the same ire.

Yep. I've had very few posts deleted but one of those was for using the word peak.

I think it also depended on who was monitoring the board at that time (I'm including both MN official staff and our "visitors" from other forums).

And do you remember that MN Intern who published IP addresses of users from this forum because she considered posters on FWR as being "transphobic scum." We have gone through some rather dire times!

There's very clear parallels between GI and cults -

Members being encouraged to sever ties with family and friends (parallel -Scientology's disconnection) creating an 'us v them' mentality

No dissent - as seen in no debate, deplatforming, control of language

No exit allowed - detransitioners being ruthlessly attacked and denigrated.

It's clear as day but up until recently we've not been allowed to even suggest it.

I think one similarity with cults is that its vocal proponents tend to be in positions of relative power in society - hence the preponderance of white middle class 'progressives' and of middle aged TIMs - whereas those it particularly badly affects aren't - ie girls with mental health issues and/or struggling with ND.

There are clear commonalities around ...

Lack of tolerance of any kind of questioning or dissent. Only full throated affirmation is allowed.

Casting out and smearing of 'apostates' (ie detransitioners).

Repetition of key phrases that function, not as statements of truth, but as identifiers of 'allyship'. I.e 'transwomen are women', 'no debate', references to 'erasure' and 'genocide'.

Creating wedges between individuals and their families (among the most insidious).

Less common, especially now, but there was a vogue for styling transpeople as somehow 'divine' or marked out as special in some way.

More straightforwardly religious than cult like, but a belief in an inner self that is somehow separate from the physical self, hence 'born in the wrong body' type explanations.

I'm sure there is more, but top of mind

Interesting. Although ive always assumed that cult isnt a great description as theres no single figurehead.

“secular religion” was the best phrase I have heard.

the methods definitely use some of Cialdini's 6 principles:

Reciprocity: People feel obliged to return favors or gifts, such as free samples or information.

Commitment & Consistency: People tend to align with their previous actions or statements. Once a small commitment is made, they are more likely to agree to larger, related requests.

Social Proof: When unsure, people look to others' behaviors and actions to guide their own decisions, such as using testimonials or user reviews.

Authority: People follow the lead of, or are influenced by, credible, knowledgeable experts.

Liking: People prefer to say yes to those they like, find attractive, or consider similar to themselves.

Scarcity: People value things more when they are rare, limited, or becoming unavailable

So in relation to gender transitions this would be:

Reciprocity: maybe not the most common in this movement but eg Mermaids giving out free binders.

Commitment & Consistency: public displays such as pronoun badges/email footers, rainbow lanyards, social transition of children. Get someone to publicly lie (eg TWAW and some women have a penis) and it’s difficult for them to tell the truth next time

Social Proof: peer influence/social contagion at the small scale and nation-wise eg being influenced by an also trying to impress others eg friends/neighbours or on a larger stage, politicians esp Joe Biden (even if we now know he wasnt in charge of much for a long time…)

Authority: WPATH standards of care, the BBC garbage news coverage & Women’s Hour, Stonewall Law. Other governments - particularly Biden’s administration. Totally made up studies about suicide rates

Liking: Press for Change made friends with civil servants and lobbied their new friends; “Be Kind” as enforced likeability

Scarcity: puberty blockers time bound and “I’d rather have a trans child than a dead child”.

The question is - how do we go about reversing any of these Cialdini principles?! He was a salesman so only interested in using them in one direction - never undoing the effects…

You're talking rubbish.