Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

😂
Enjoy being cross-examined on your statements and beliefs.

And yet you'll never be able to say "oh I know, the struggle is real" from first-hand experience when a friend tells you about her menopausal brain fog, or her struggle to conceive, or her menstrual cramps. You'll never know how long two minutes feels when spent waiting for a pregnancy test. And, unlike amenorrheaic and infertile women, you'll never be subjected to batteries of tests and exams to determine why you don't menstruate or conceive because your clinicians know that the answer is "you are male". There's a whole constellation of social and medical experiences that all women experience at least one of, that you will never experience any of, because you are male.

Good for her! That is where she should compete.

it increased participants normalisation of their behaviour and propensity to reoffend

Sex offenders in a room together reinforce each other's behaviour? Colour me surprised...

Children who are unhappy with their sexed bodies exist. I was one. Puberty is brutal for autistic girls, doubly-so when it starts at age eight.

What healthcare does such a child, who is physically healthy, need?

@onepostwonder
Oh darling, please believe me, I never meant you no harm, but when you suggest that any endocrine treatment of children is appropriate based on your less than credible backstory (did you end up at 5'5" or 5'4"?) then I will call dirty pool.

It does. Puberty is developmentally-necessary and interfering with it is damaging to bone strength.

I disagree. I believe I've answered the questions best I can. I have no special insight other than to say trans children, as I experienced, exist. We will be very persistent. There was very little cultural attention to trans people in the 1980s, we were a spectacle not people. Compared to today, health care was effectively banned back then. I suspect some countries will ban trans care in the future. Once a culture war begins, they tend to become very ingrained into political systems.

There are three major differences between the 1980s and today that will persist regardless of laws or access to healthcare:

1. There is there is no barrier to locating information. Everyone here is capable of opening another tab and searching the world's knowledge on any topic this very second.
2. There is a visible community of trans people happy to share information and support with trans people who need information and support.
3. Hormones are almost as accessible to anyone as any street drug in countries that don't already sell them over the counter.

I believe full access to healthcare is a right, but facing a world where it is medically or legally 'unavailable,' I empathise with trans people who will pursue transition regardless.

At the same time, I also believe transition shouldn't ever be attempted by the majority of people who undergo it today. I'm also not going to stop anyone.

I've never experienced adult transition. I don't know how it feels to have an established life and livelihood and decide that 'now' is time to change sex. As I've met more later transitioning adults, I feel that there's a lot of pain involved and far more social friction during the experience than I've ever experienced.

I've always been supportive of trans acceptance within law and DEI initiatives. The surgeries to reverse sex-based pubertal development were a bit of a bridge too far, but as I've thought about them today in the context of being forced until 32 to receive health care, I can say I believe the following:

1. If access to care is banned for children, adolescents, and now youth-32 year olds, countries should be prepared to subsidise all treatment for later in life including surgeries, hair removal, etc. Trans people have been through puberty for whatever reason and should have access to whatever treatments they wish, even surgeries to reverse sex-based pubertal development.
2. Cultures should 'be kind' to trans people who undergo 'the wrong puberty' and are unable to receive health care. This includes legally enforced special accommodations and social mandates for acceptance. This of course will have the likely affect that forms a third gender caste. But tyranny of the majority always has losers.

Bone density does well under both oestrogen or testosterone as long as the HRT is maintained.

Trans girls will find the density of their bones reduced when compared to boys and later, men. But it's still within the female norm and oestrogen does a fine job of preservation as long as you continue to take your HRT.

Trans boys may find their bone density higher when compared to girls and later, women. I don't know if it's within the male norm but testosterone will preserve density as long as it is continued.

I hear blockers may affect density differently, so I am not mentioning it here.

I was 5'5" and have shrunk an inch due to osteopenia and I suppose age.

I don't know how it feels to have an established life and livelihood and decide that 'now' is time to change sex

People can't change sex though.
You didn't.

You said they were judged to not have mental health issues though despite extreme self harm, didn’t you?

That is contradictory. Or were you highlighting just how let down they were by the health system that should have protected them?

We will be very persistent

There are detransitioners who tell how persistent they were. So how do you distinguish between the “real trans kids” and those who shouldn’t get medical treatments?

Compared to today, health care was effectively banned back then

What do you mean by “health care”? You mean medical treatments, do you? Because health care for gender distressed children can be things other than this.

I suspect some countries will ban trans care in the future

Ban what bow? “Trans care”. What’s that?

I believe I've answered the questions best I can.

Yes you have. Which is telling. Because the best anyone can answer these questions is not at all.

I think that GAC on the NHS, for adults only, might end up as the compromise position, and the additional cost would be at least partly offset by savings from not purporting to treat children.

Using drugs and surgery to treat psychiatric conditions is unusual to say the least. Nevertheless, I don't think there would remain much appetite for an outright ban, once children are taken out of the picture. The public are naturally libertarian, and ok with people damaging themselves as long as no-one else gets hurt.

There would of course be grumpy stories in the Daily Mail about woke doctors giving cosmetic treatments while grannies languish on waiting lists, but things were ever thus.

I said "they were not impacted by any other mental illness." Implying they were more quickly able to enter medical treatment for gender dysphoria.

Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5515170-is-there-any-concern-among-trans-rights-activists-for-the-health-wellbeing-of-adolescents-receiving-gender-affirming-drugs-that-the-findings-of-the-finnish-study-might-be-true?page=10&reply=151662573

I know this will sound weird, but stay with me on this. I know. I've never said any of those things. My close friends, and even many acquaintances know I've never menstruated and i've been on HRT since puberty.

Are they actionable when we don't know you from Adam?

In an unreasonable world, this may be reasonable for most.

The NHS will have a lot of work in front of themselves with what I've heard are 100 year waiting lists, or something near as scandalous.

Yes, that's why I said 'probably.'

we women are really diverse. Different ages, religions, backgrounds, ethnicities, heights, body shapes, yet we all share womanhood, and as such have lots in common. You have never had a female experience, @onepostwonder. I have no more in common with you than with any other man.
I will never, could never know what it feels to be a transwoman, because only men can become transwomen, and you will never know what it feels like or means to be a woman

Cheers! 🥂

Other people would get hurt. Close relatives.

I agree. But do you think it could be banned as unethical though (irrespective of who pays)? That would be such a massive step, from our current starting point. And involving the NHS in the meantime may mitigate some harms from DIY efforts and health tourism.

If you did receive a sternly written note, would it change your behaviour?

I've never received a note. I don't know if it would change my behaviour. Likely not. Obviously I've not left 1000s of destroyed women's spaces in some decades long storm. What I do know is I've destroyed more than a couple of de facto men's spaces along the way.

Does this forum not count as a ‘sternly written note’?

This forum counts as a 'sternly written note' as much as yesterday's protests represent the apparent sex-exclusive rights priorities of women in the UK. The way FWR talks about trans people invading single sex spaces, I would have expected millions of women in the streets and shouts from the rooftops about the one year anniversary.

Rather than talking about yourself again @onepostwonder , can you answer the questions you’ve been asked in relation to the findings that children who are medically transitioned grow up to be adults accessing mental health services at a high rate.

As one example, you seem to think it’s possible to determine who really needs medical treatment as a child and who doesn’t. How?