Is there ANY concern among Trans Rights Activists for the health wellbeing of adolescents receiving gender affirming drugs that the findings of the Finnish study might be true

[mardirousse]

You would expect Trans Rights Activists to be concerned about the physical mental health of gender questioning children, yet I haven't seen a single TRA express the slightest concern that gender affirming care might be causing harm to young kids, who they see as transgender. Not here, not on r/transgenderuk, not on x.
They are attacking the credibility of the study, but given its size and the very shocking findings, why aren't at least some of them expressing a little concern that there might be something in it? I mean, these are vulnerable kids, and they're taking really powerful drugs with major long-term consequences, and now it looks like there's evidence that it may be doing the opposite of what it's supposed to...
How could you not be concerned, whatever your agenda? They're kids!
Aren't trans rights activists interested in the right of trans kids to be safe and healthy?
Am I missing something?

All I have is my own experience on this topic. I think it's a poor study. I've provided my reasons why I feel that way. You don't like the reasons or they don't make sense under GC/SR beliefs. See how easy that was?

Also, recent experience would show that any response generates exponential incessant pedantry.

Acetaminophen and ibuprofen negatively affect more lives.

Citation needed.

Youth are routinely celebrated for sacrificing their lives in the name of patriotism and national identity.

Are you comparing armed forces personnel, which include the liberators of Auchwitz, to gender confused children?

Here is a similar study from the US. It is also studying a similar cohort to the Finnish paper in a very different culture and diagnostic environment than the one I was in.

I am not surprised by any of its findings, but it also provides data and a discussion that lead to its conclusion, which is plainly written. Trans youth require support systems. I haven't searched, but it would be interesting to see any papers addressing the questions raised in the 'future research' sentence. The Finnish paper's conclusion is basically 'Look at the big number we made. We weren't able to learn anything about how it happens or what it means, but Christ is it large.'

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4339405/

So how on earth can you claim to have "changed sex" for social purposes? An entire class of social interactions and consequences, including maternity discrimination, are very much linked to sex.

You don't like the reasons or they don't make sense under GC/SR beliefs. See how easy that was?

You said too many of the wrong children are getting medical treatments. Why are they the wrong children and how can you tell they are the wrong children? You haven’t given a reason at all, let alone one that doesn’t “make sense under GC/SR beliefs”.

Trans youth require support systems.

Distressed teens in "need CAMHS to suck less" shocker. I mean, I could have told you that...

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? If some gender confused children with mental health problems turn into trans identifying adults with exactly the same mental health problems, then surely everyone can agree they need mental health support.

Where people disagree is some people think it’s worth hormonally adulterating their bodies in the interim with all the harm that brings. Some people think this is a bad idea seeing as the outcome doesn’t change.

Some people think if you can successfully identify which children are best suited and hormonally adulterating them, and exclude the ones who don’t need it, then it will be all good.

No one can explain how to do this though. No one has ever explained this at all.

I've never claimed to be able to magically sort who is 'real' (using someone's word from earlier in this thread) and who isn't. I'm a random person on the Internet. If anyone could do it with 100% certainty, they'd probably be very rich or hunted by religious fanatics, or both!

I typed more here, but erased it. This forum doesn't care about trans health care, really. It would be attacked even if it were applied 100% accurately (for some value of 'accurately'). Treatment of children and adolescents in such a system would still be considered harmful. There is no way to discuss this, let alone explain anything related to it here.

"Health care" for a mental illness shouldn't leave the patient sterile. We do care, a lot, about children being sterilised when they have a mental health condition.

Maybe I'm weird but my friends aren't in a constant state of biologically induced feminine miasma. Do those discussions and concerns occur, yes. And many more. But the other women around me manage to be doing other things as well.

Here is one social example: I was asked to join a committee as the “token woman” by the committee chair not even two years after I made complaints* that effectively retired the man who held the role before him. Ten years later I was chair of the committee and we finally achieved gender balance.

I've also experienced workplace discrimination related to potential pregnancy in multiple contexts even.

Sex based discrimination is linked to sex, yes.

*about a 1-hour misogyny laden phone call the very first time I’d had the misfortune to interact with that committee. At the time, it had never had a female member.

My belief is no person owes another person their fertility.

But I also believe trans youth should be provided the opportunity to bank sperm or eggs.

So they got a man to be the “token woman”? Wow! And as you with a member…. It still didn’t have a female member did it? No wonder the misogynistic men wanted you on board. They got a “ token woman” without having to let a woman join. No wonder they call the trans movement a men’s rights movement.

This would be the GC/SR belief.

I didn't join as the token woman. I told him to get stuffed and shared the email with coworkers.

Citation needed.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4610347/

Are you comparing armed forces personnel, which include the liberators of Auchwitz, to gender confused children?

Not in the bad faith context you have assembled.

The US study simply shows that poor mental health is more common in transgender people.
That is known and one of the reasons why talking therapy, not puberty blockers and surgery, should be the priority.
What it does not show, which the Finnish study does, is that 'affirming care' does not improve this.
So thank you for highlighting the importance of the new research.

You are being ridiculous
Paracetamol does not ruin any lives when taken as prescribed.
This part is studying the effects of overdose.
We are talking about the serious, side effects of cross sex hormones and puberty blockers when taken exactly as prescribed by the adolescents' clinicians

“I would have expected millions of women in the streets and shouts from the rooftops about the one year anniversary.”

Then you really do know very little about the experiences of female people. You do keep showing us how little you know about us and understand our lives.

I've never claimed to be able to magically sort who is 'real' (using someone's word from earlier in this thread) and who isn't

You said there are kids getting hormones who shouldn’t be. Why do you think they shouldn’t be? What makes them the wrong sort?

You said that if services were bigger and not limited this wouldn’t happen.

So you must have an opinion on why some children are not the right type to get hormones.

“Ten years later I was chair of the committee and we finally achieved gender balance.”

What is ‘gender’ balance?

Sex category balance? Great if you included yourself as a male person on that committee.

Gender identity balance? How was that worked out? What proportion was the committee was the segment of ‘don’t believe in gender identity’ / ‘transwoman’ / ‘transman’ / ‘cis male’ / ‘cis female’ / ‘non binary’ / and was all other gender identities rolled in one or two representatives?

Otherwise, if you included yourself as female and declare that it is a balanced sex category committee, that would be you taking the representational position of a female person you are not entitled to. And as the chair of the committee you should not be claiming to be a female chair of the committee.

But thank you for demonstrating how male people displace female people in representational roles.

At 6?

Were you like Matilda Wormwood?

Onepostwonder is so like another poster, who was on internet chat rooms in the 90s forging an online community before the age of 16 🙄 The most passing-est and successful adult trans identifying males all seem to be super precocious, genuinely trans (without being able to explain what that means) and super annoyed at all the young upstarts who have come along and made everything so messy for the “real” trans people like them.

Onepostwonder is clearly “tru trans” and would be considered transphobic in TRA circles, for not believing that a person’s declared identity is enough. I believe the derogatory term they use for people like onepostwonder is “truscum”.

Well don’t forget that the material that teenaged boy was reading would have not been balanced in how it discussed women’s rights in relation to those men who declared they were women. At all.

And just how could an inexperienced teenaged brain understand in depth the outcomes of any male person writing about their experience or any clinician writing about what effectively were experiments.

I think it was supposed to be assuring us about how knowledgable the person was as a teenager making the choice he made. But viewed through understanding how little in depth knowledge there would have been at the time, it seems more like adults letting a child consent for extreme body modifications when they really shouldn’t have.

So much of what I have read about these experiences seems like the male people who have made these choices as children, have built similar scaffolding to strengthen their experiences and to make it true that they are somehow female now.

The ‘female puberty’ references, the discussion that their bodies are now so changed that they really are female, the lack of ability to acknowledge that there will be people who understood from the barest of interactions that these male people are male, the insistence that the choice was made with a huge depth of knowledge and understanding … these are commonalities in the backgrounds we are being told. Yet, it seems to be all a type of similar scaffolding to protect the decision made as a child.

This is the one key question absolutely nobody can answer.

We can discuss how many trutrans children can dance on the head of a pin, but the fact that everyone acknowledges but cannot answer is that healthy children - the majority of 'gender incongruent' children - will be harmed by 'affirmative' care.

How many sterilised children (who would mostly have gone on to be same sex attracted) is acceptable? Not to mention the other known and unknown harms to bone health, mental health, cardio health, GU health, etc.

This cannot be shrugged away.

@onepostwonder half of those in the study were children, the rest barely adult and still without fully adult brains. No reason to think those barely out of childhood respond differently to adolescents so it's finding are definitely relevant to children. You are tying yourself in knots trying to defend the indefensible.