Late night surprise about reputation of FWR

[IwantToRetire]

I was on Site Stuff to report back on ongoing freezing and noticed another thread about whether Mumsnet should apologise about deleting threads about ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

And there were some comments about there being a border line between legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and anti semitism. And it is this last that get these threads deleted.

So was surprised to see some comment on this thread saying it was as bad as some threads on FWR, and those particularly at fault are thos with a GC view point.

(Funnily enough AI suggested a title for this thread along the lines of "Are FWR debates judged differently ..... " but now it has hidden its suggestion, just when I was going to use it.)

Oh its come back

"Are sex and gender debates on FWR judged by different standards?"

Of course it’s a statement of that. When it’s directed at me, I take it as someone hoping my child comes to harm so that their point is proven. which isn’t particularly warm and fuzzy.

I’m sorry that your DD was attacked. Every mother with a daughter is horrified about this possibility.

It does seem, however, that her experience is influencing your view on that one comment. Can you see that such a comment being made is not ‘point proven’ that both sides are nasty? There is a chasm in intent. Because, fgs, a poster is not genuinely wanting your daughter to be attacked!

It’s a stylistic device, in light of your personal apathy, to try to make you/a poster feel more sympathetic to how other women, who have been attacked, feel when you declare no personal objection to allowing a male into female space by virtue of declaring themselves women.

So, if it was said, it would have been born out of deep deep frustration of the many drive by posters coming along with accusations of ‘you’re all mean’.

Yet in proposing you/they are fine with a man who says he’s a woman coming into women’s toilets, there is no acknowledgement that other women are not fine with that and that their feelings are equally if not more legitimate.

Many posters, myself included, know and are fine with older males who want to present themselves in female presenting clothes. I do not believe that gives them a free pass to access all single sex spaces however.

Would you agree or disagree with that last viewpoint?

Is anyone else getting Déjà vu? Didn’t we just have a poster who claimed it’s all “both sides” but our apparent aggression convinced them we were all actually big meanies who hated transpeople and were just making up the threats from TIMs?

There have been many such posters IME.

Sorry, I haven’t been here long.

No worries, I just meant they’re a not uncommon occurrence and are drawn to this type of thread. I suspect some of them (not anyone here for the avoidance of doubt) are name changing posters who repeat the same schtick. Just saying, it’s a pattern.

I believe there have been two or three this week.

I also don’t recall those posters doing much engaging with the actual points and are more focused on telling women what we are doing wrong.

That’s what was bugging me. It was almost exactly the same arguments and phrasing. Thought I’d lost my mind for a moment.

I think I've had deja vu for the last ten years for such claims.

I'm yet to see evidence of the planned MN genocide nor anyone claim JKRowling £1million prize for finding transphobia in her posts.

All I have ever seen is "well I've been told/I have heard by hearsay that"... And surprisingly no actual quotes of these crimes.

Yet we can produce hundreds of photos and videos of TRAs making threats or imaginary associated with threats of violence against women for dating to say "but you can't change sex, it's impossible. A man can not become a woman and no it's not ok to pretend they can because it harms women and children".

I'm so bored with making this point at least once a week to the ploppers who claim they are engaging in good faith when they clearly have their heads jammed firmly up their own arses and don't use their own eyes and brain and instead rely on what someone else (usually on the interwebs) told them they should think.

No. They all just sound like cloned robots reading from a script.

You get used to it after a while.

I believe there have been two or three this week.

I also don’t recall those posters doing much engaging with the actual points and are more focused on telling women what we are doing wrong.

it is the same arguments being used. You haven’t lost your mind.

'I personally find the GC people on these threads far more aggressive than those who support trans rights.'

As I said to someone else, quoting me one
example of someone being aggressive on one side, doesn’t mean no one’s been aggressive on the other. Nor does it negate my personal experience when expressing my views.

I imagine becuase a TRA might be less threatened by view of “live and let live”, than a GC person. But that is still my experience, however many memes you link.

Women need to be educated or punished. There is no genuine attempt to listen to us.

I am very much in the live and let live camp thank you very much.

That includes allowing women to engage in public life in line with religious beliefs and possible personal trauma.

The people saying to exclude are those trying to get women chucked out of political parties, from jobs and even from hospital care.

Remember the third spaces that are not acceptable to those wanting to use the women in women's spaces for validation or a show of dominance

That's not a meme. It's an actual group that has already committed violent acts including smashing Wes Streeting's office.

Great, I haven’t made any comment on your beliefs, or your right to hold them. Merely replied to the comment saying people had never seen aggression on the GC side. I’ve been unable to do that without someone replying with “so you agree that….” Or “why do you think about ….”

FWIW, as I already mentioned my daughter was sexually assaulted by her best friends dad, so we absolutely hold personal trauma in this family. I won’t use that to belittle anyone else, or their beliefs though, I just do what I find best to mitigate harm in the future. How you and I decide that’s best done may well vary and that’s OK (by me).

I haven’t made any comment on third spaces, or my opinion on them. But if you’d like to know - I think they’re a wonderful idea, although don’t think they fully protect women from men any more than single sex spaces where sexual assaults have already happened when people have entered when they had no right to be there.

But again, my contribution wasn’t to put across my opinion on trans issues, mainly because I’ve come to understand fairly rapidly that the views I and my circle of friends and family hold don’t equate with the general feeling on MN (in either direction). But that doesn’t mean I can’t contribute my experience on these boards - which is what the poster I replied to initially actually asked.

I cant think of many issues where people stubble into the discussion, claim they know little about it, admit they aren't particularly interested in it, assume a live and let live attitude will solve everything, and then act hurt when they are challenged about their opinions, saying that they refuse to engage if others arent behaving in a way that they want.

Why post in the first place? And continue to post? Why assume that others dont know what they are talking about and there may be details they havent thought about?

Ok, that’s awful. No suggestion I condemn violence from anyone.

it didn’t go any further towards proving that there is or isn’t aggression
on both sides on these chat forums.

And it’s so entirely predictable.

You'd have lived your life without people on FWR 'casting judgement' if you'd not advertised your 'I don't really care' viewpoint on a feminist board.

Not having an opinion on men in women's spaces is bound to be judged on a board like this. It looks as if you've not thought the issues and aren't prepared to defend your position.

You'll get used to it.
Sometimes it feels like a recurring dream, and not a good one.

Are you suggesting other women lack basic comprehension? That they find it difficult to make up their own minds?

That isn’t what is happening here. “Cognitive dissonance” isn’t the problem. You said it yourself - other opinions aren’t allowed, and that’s it. Look at the threads with the most responses (apart from the tribunal ones). What do they have in common? Generally, they’re a thread where someone is being attacked by a group of posters. Whatever useful information there might have been is lost in drama.

I mean I've explained my contribution a few times, but happy to do so again.

the ONLY claim i replied to was the one from someone that said they had never seen aggression from the GC camp on these forums. I have, so I added my contribution. Which, although correct me if I’m wrong, I’m entitled to do.

I don’t purposely “stubble” into tran discussions on MN, sometimes otherwise unrelated threads move into them for example.

What I mean by “I don’t care” is not “I don’t care about the issue” it’s (as I’ve explained more than once “I don’t believe you can change biological sex but I don’t care if other people do think that”. Any more than I don’t believe in religion, but I don’t care if others do.

for you it might be a far deeper issue, for me it isn’t. And despite what people on here would have you believe, im allowed to hold an opinion that differs to theirs without being insulted or invalidated.