feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

The argument I have heard (which I do not agree with btw) is that they experience suicide/violence/homelessness at higher rates than women. I'm not saying it is correct (I don't even know if it is true) but that is the argument that TRAs make.

As someone who sometimes indulges our various visitors, one of (many) reasons I may reply is that I think threads like this can actually draw attention to these developments. I read Retire's posts saying not to engage somewhere in the recent spate of accusations and can totally see her point - maybe we shouldn't. But speaking for myself, I've not been dropping by much recently, then clicked today and saw several really rapid, emotive threads which drew me right in (dammit!) - and that led directly to me making a mental note to read up on the Finnish study.

Thank you. I was about to go back and point out that that wasn’t how I’d read it.

It reveals nothing. Use whatever pronouns you want but don’t say trans identity is fashionable and pushed by gays - which is actually what I was referring to

"Genuine" transwomen are still ultimately basing their identity as "a woman" on their own sexist projections about how it is to be and live as "a woman" rather than "a man".

It's all still just about what is in their own heads.

It's nothing to with the reality of womanhood as female people experience it.

The only actual thing that creates the connection between trans women's feelings and female people's existence is that the forner chose the name of the latter to label themselves.

Seems like a lot of words to accuse me of things I’ve never said and don’t believe. Also looks chat-gpt generated

What women wear stereotypically (dress, makeup, bra, high heels). If you want to present as a woman you would wear highly stereotypical clothing (even though of course not all women dress stereotypically).

That’s nonsense.

This is nonsense though.

No one can ever explain why we should accept ...

Some men being treated as women/given acccess to women's spaces and services because they say they should. Withoit womens consent on the matter.

Women's legal rights to single sex spaces being undermined

Us being called bigots / transphobes because we have a biologically sound position that humans can't change sex

Care to comment on any of that?

They are likely to experience higher suicide rates than women because they are men and men have higher suicide rates than women.

There are numerous charities such as stonewall supporting trans rights, many politicians support them, there are trans politicians (including an MP in the past). Organisations throughout the country have put the needs of trans identified men above the needs of women. Trade unions have let down women calling them transphobic if they object to trans identified men in female spaces.

Does all that support suggest marginalisation of trans people?

So if you took away these sexist ideas of how women should dress, it reaveals that males with a trans identity are not women after all. If you need your clothes to tell someone you’re a woman… you’re not a woman.

Catiette is one of the wisest women on these threads.

Hear hear.

Where did I ever claim that transwomen are women? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I don't know anyone who would object to men going outside "dressed as women" (well maybe my elderly grandfather and others of his generation). I do know a lot of people who object treating these men as any kind of woman.

They are men in dresses/skirts/whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Why are you arguing with me. I very clearly said these were the arguments that TRAs make, not my own arguments (I don't agree that trans people are more marginalized).

It’s very easy to do that if you’ve got ai helping with your posts. How else get all of this psychoanalysis out of things I’ve never said?

If you are transphobic then you probably would not be happy with them going out dressed as women (even if they stayed out of women's spaces)

But if they aren't claiming to be transwomen, and just accepted that they are, and always will be, men, then hoe could anyone be transphobic towards them?

Perhaps society needs to stop seeing dresses etc as women's clothing so men can feel comfortable wearing them in public.

Obviously men's dresses will need to be cut differently but I'm sure that can be done.

Bluntly, I don’t give a fuck how anyone dresses.

I really really don’t care.

men need to stay out of women’s single sex spaces.

I'm afraid that, again, I find your post above quite revealing - or hard to understand, at least.

It's important to me to respond to what was written, so I've just skimmed all 5 pages before the original post to which I was replying, and closely read the 10 or so immediately before it. I simply can't see any indication that this is what you intended.

This leaves me thinking that your response above may just be an easy way out of addressing a difficult conundrum - the lemon problem! Regardless of your original intentions in posting, I'd be interested to hear your response to this. We have two groups (women and trans women) wanting the same word and political identity. GC feminists argue for a way forward that acknowledges both groups (although take many different approaches in doing this, which may choose to foreground any or none of the dysphoric transsexual / the AGP male / the vulnerable teen comprising the second group). Your post appears to argue for subsuming the first group into the second.

I see our approach (in the most general terms - again, there are many conceptions of and perspectives on what "trans" actually means within it) the less prejudiced of the two.

PS May not be able to respond in full for quite some time - travelling.

ETA: Do quote to correct me if I have missed something really obvious and unambiguous in my skimming and rereading above - I may have. Again, travelling (ugh!)

I doubt anyone on here cares how these men dress.

Some transwomen call themselves trans even if they have not undertaken medication/surgery. Again, if you hate trans people then you probably aren't making a big distinction being a transwoman on medication and another who isn't (crossdresser). I'm not saying its right but transphobia does exist.

That's actually really revealing.

Dismiss coherent well reasoned posts oit of hand as "a lot of words" and "chat-gpt generated" rather than engaging with the content and raising objecting arguments suggests you simply aren't used to having to engage with more complex ideas.

It didn't read like chatGPT at all to me - but then I am used to long format content.

However, because the best way to learn and grow is to seek out disagreement rather than confirmation, I checked that assumption with chatGpt.

Estimate: 20–35% likely AI-generated (i.e., more likely human-written).

I didn't say the transphobia was on here, I just said it exists and that it can be the motivation for why some object to adults changing their or medication/surgery.