Poor Semenya

[RumNotRun]

https://news.sky.com/story/if-women-must-stop-competing-so-be-it-semenyas-rallying-cry-over-olympics-transgender-athlete-ban-13525463

He's fighting for women's dignity apparently. The article says nothing about the children he's fathered, whilst being a woman of course.

That’s very over simplified as you well know

It’s easy.

Biologically female people compete against other biologically female people.

Anyone else can compete against who ever they choose to. If they are good enough they will win prizes and medals.

No they aren't, because that is a solved problem. We already have a framework for supporting the many wonderful humans who want to participate in elite sport but due to developmental disorder or injury fall outside the usual human range.

It's called the Paralympics, it is hugely respected and influential, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever "intersex" as you have it should not be a Paralympic category with all the support, care and attention to fairness that comes with it.

No, the "complexity" they are grappling with is entirely down to the ideological demand that these people who are not simply boring old female people, whether "intersex" (in your terminology), males with DSDs, or jusy plain ol' males who are trans identifying, somehow nevertheless should have the right to be compete within the sports category that also contains the boring old females regardless of whether or not their biological differences to said boring old females give them unfair advantages.

No

its really that simple

and its good practise to keep things as simple as possible

Asking you to read an article is arrogant?

ETA - I know I can't make anyone read stuff, but I don't see the harm in politely asking. It might help people understand each other.

Any sources, evidence, or anything at all to back up your claims,Uglydumpling?
Unlike you, most people don't think it is a sign of 'arrogance' to share sources.

lol

yea much better and clearer in female category

No I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy for those like CS - I guess they may have another category for people like CS - like in the paralympics

Let's just take a second to look at Semenya's wedding photo. If he genuinely identifies as a woman, why is he letting his wife grope his breast in their official wedding photos? Note how he has placed his hand on her shoulder, not her breast.
It couldn't be clearer that they both know he's a man.

It’s very arrogant to direct people
to sources because they disagree with you and you want them to agree - assigning them reading 😂😂

I’m happy to agree to disagree - I don’t want be in the mumsnet echo chamber thank you

I agree he is male but I wonder if this is what actually happened . Was he found quite young and was repeatedly told he was female by training officials. Some Olympic winners move into a training camp as teenagers. Not a normal childhood

I saw one of her embracing her bottom! So that refutes that theory

you are making judgements on someones complicated internal biology on how they are standing!

I'd be very happy to read anything you directed me to, please do!
I definitely wouldn't think it was arrogant.
The only way out of an 'echo chamber' is to share a variety of sources so we can read them and make up our own minds. So far, every reliable source I'm familiar with is clear that human sex is binary, and DSDs are either male DSDs of female DSDs.
I only agree with things that I believe are proven and valid, I disagree with things that aren't. but I have to do my own research to work out which is which.

So if you can direct me to a source that says otherwise, I'd be happy to read it, and I wouldn't feel you had been arrogant at all.

I understand that “trainers” went looking for children like semenya so yes I do think there has been abuse

None of us are omniscient. I often read links posted by people that I disagree with.

I must be weird, as I find it helpful when trying to understand what others think. Some things have even caused me to review my own position on a subject. Surely that is the opposite of being in an echo chamber?

Then as this board gets called an echo chamber regularly why are you here? I mean you are more than welcome but I don't understand why you'd want to be here?

And directing people to sources isn't arrogant. The local preachers used to direct me to passages of the bible on a regular basis as I walked through town. So I read them. I still think they are a bunch of loony tunes but I didn't think they were arrogant wanting me to read something that may make me come round to their way of thinking.

My knowledge is just gathered over time and what is being discussed topically - I’m not someone who says it’s definitely this and I’m not listening to grey - I don’t know how you can make that claim when the medical establishment isn’t even sure yet

No.
Their external genitalia may well look ambiguous by it'll always either be male or female when examined microscopically.

But you don't gather that knowledge by reading links that you might disagree with?

ETA- this is in reply to Duckling.

They'll all be out of a job now!

Ah.
So not scientific, then?
That's disappointing.
I was hoping to learn something new.

Well,if people with a DSD think they are female they can take a test.

If they don’t pass the test then they can race as their genetic sex. Having a DSD has not stopped athletes competing in the past, and won’t in the future as no one is saying they can’t take part in professional sport, though they might have to adjust their expectations , and realise that competing against other biological males is a damn sight harder than competing against biological females.

But hey, we can’t all be good enough to take part in elite sport, as I realised when I watched the amazing indoor athletics the other night and realised that I am not quite as fast at running, or as good at jumping high, as I would like to be. If I can accept my limitations then I am pretty sure others can too.

I think there are people who want to understand, to find truth, and they will read a variety of sources and ask questions and listen to others and read things they might not agree with

and people who are sufficiently self confident that they know and what they say is true

That's fair enough, thanks for saying that.
I go into things in a lot of detail, I love digging into the background of issues and events
I freely admit that there are a lot of subjects I don't know very much about. I tend to avoid posting my opinions on them because I wouldn't be confident that I had my facts straight.

I don't doubt that he was scouted because he has a DSD and was told that he could qualify as a women for athletics.

I do doubt that he actually believed he was female when he was scouted.