Girlguiding - So HTF did you know what was going on then ?

[SerendipityJane]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2rn250ddjo

It is not clear how many people will be directly affected by the rule change, as the organisation says it does not collect data on gender identity.

Doesn't this whole shitshow demonstrate how much damage these men have done? Time after time, they've tried to colonise anything female.

It's such a relief to finally see #nodebate abandoned and society allowed to comment on why this has happened and point out the safeguarding risks.

It didn't have to be like this. But from the outset trans activists glommed onto anything related to with women, girls or children (with GG being one of the 1st organisations to get their attention. The level of arrogance from these men lecturing well established organisations on men's rights end entitlement beggars belief.

Resulting in these organisations ending up in this incoherent mess with many smaller groups (lesbians, women's health, women's support & social groups) simply shutting down to avoid harassment and abuse from these men.

It's unforgivable.

It was never about children - it was (and is) about adult men.

Every message that comes out just muddies the water further.
I run Brownies and help at Rainbows. If someone registers their child and completes all the online form there is no further requirement on me to check anything. I’ve never checked a birth certificate. I’ve never been asked to. In my 10 years as a leader I have never seen a child anything other than fully clothed at Brownies. I would have no idea what they were assigned at birth. A child of 10 or under is pretty hard to know either way. I’ve had Brownies who wear jeans and the uniform top, shorter hair, traditionally male name. They seem to enjoy our meetings so I don’t really care how they identify. I’m certainly not going to start asking ‘are you a girl really?’

It gets more complex with older children but equally, if everyone registered as a young member is ‘assumed’ to be female, I can’t work out where the information is coming from about trans members. We don’t know that detail!
Regardless, it will be spun however those with an axe to grind want to spin it.

Unfortunately, those who run girl guides are so far gone down the ideology path I don’t trust there won’t be any malicious compliance (like the data excuse).

As an aside, I think it’s also grossly unfair that boys don’t have a counterpart that’s just for them either. Scouts and boys brigades are now unisex. We’ve really muddied society and what both sexes need the past decade.

Begs the question, why can trans girls (trans identified males) join those?

The only people whose sex is ‘assigned at birth’ are the tiny numbers of people with Disorders of Sexual Development born with ambiguous genitalia, for whom a medical professional ‘assigns’ them a sex. A practice not carried out in the developed world now we have genetic testing and better medical care.

The vast majority of people have their sex observed at birth, which is how humans have sorted male from female since the dawn of time. No-one can change sex.

The problem of needing to establish whether a child is female in order to join a single-sex organisation such as the Guides or Brownies has been created by trans rights activists. Previous to this people followed the unspoken social contract that says you join the single-sex organisation that matches your sex. We feminists want to get back to the position where women and girls no longer have their boundaries violated and can have our single sex spaces back for the very good reasons they were created in the first place. If it means checking ID to get back to that position, I don’t see a problem.

What do you mean by “those with an axe to grind”?

You run a Brownie pack and you are that ignorant about safeguarding??!!!

The idea that a boy could join the gg without anyone knowing is bonkers.

Realistically, he'd be known as the 'trans girl' by everyone, or the parents would have to enlist leaders to hide the fact from other children. It would mean that he'd have to be new to the area, and not attend the same school as any other guide. And the parents always having the fear that he'd be outed.

More likely, the leaders would know and manage that as the boys parents see fit - have trans visibility sessions, or lie to the other children.

Its unlikely that many boys under 10 would be trans and wanting to attend rainbows and brownies. It'll be in guides and more likely rangers age. And thats when this sort of safeguarding is crucial.

From what I remember, membership was falling some areas, so units could decided if they wanted to allow girls to join.

I know when mine were that age, GG had a waiting list, but scouts didn't.

Ah Good Times.

Exactly. In reality it would take huge subterfuge for a boy to join Brownies or Guides without anyone knowing he's a boy or it being revealed.

This is one of the central lies children are being sold: Everyone will see you as a girl if we say you are one.
No they won't.

They'll know you are boy, or someone will know someone who knows you are a boy and it will be revealed, Or puberty will make it apparent.

You can't live a lie.

Anyone who has a kid playing junior league football will have had to show birth certificate for registration.

'Axe to grind'

So you have no desire to safeguard your girls and are happy to put them in a situation where they know there's a boy in the group (cos they will and do) and then certain subjects or issues come up and they go silent because they are uncomfortable with him being there.

There was a boy in the year above my son who was included in all the puberty talks at school. Including with Muslim girls. They were all so unhappy about it. But they didn't say anything openly. They were happy playing with him etc but there was still a line where they were unhappy.

They'd been conditioned not to say anything though and instead be silent and not voice how it made them feel.

Are these the people with an 'axe to grind'? The actual 9 and 10 year old girls themselves? Or what about the parents concerned about the fact they know their daughter is upset and being forced into a situation they are uncomfortable with and being taught not to stand up for themselves? Are they grinding axes?

God forbid there's an actual safeguarding red flag or fail... Which you are potentially on the hook for by not checking the sex of the kids - safeguarding is there to protect leaders as well as kids due to how some adults lie.

If you don't insist on checking all the girls as routine, you put yourself in a vulnerable position later down the line. You might wish to consider this. HQ can have a policy not to check but it's you who will face the issue personally if something happens at your group and there's a complaint or concern. HQ will leave you and other leaders out to dry with a don't ask don't tell type policy...

I used passport for my son’s id for football.

If you don't insist on checking all the girls as routine

This means checking their birth certificate (which records sex observed at birth) for those disingenuous transactivist posters who are obsessed with genitals.

Ok so let’s say that a trans girl joins your group and you have no idea that they are a boy*. They have fun and want to progress to guides, start puberty and their body becomes clearly identifiably male. Is it fair to say, “sorry mate, I know we have told you that you are a girl since you were 5 but clearly you are male so off you pop now to a different youth group”

I think it would be much better to check birth certificates and then everyone would know where they stand from the offset but I suspect there are folks in the organisation who want to pretend that it’s all too difficult.

• I think in most cases it’s quite noticeable even in children under 10 the difference in the sexes even when kids are dressed identically. JFC as a child off the seventies with most girls and boys with similar length hair and dressed in various shades of orange and brown trousers and jumpers we could still tell the difference.

They were happy playing with him

My DD played mostly with boys in primary school. No one pretended she was actually a boy but they were still happy to play together.

My friend’s DS likewise played happily with girls and they with him for most of primary.

My friend is a district commissioner, they have zero trans members in their district and when talking to others at meetings she hasn’t met any commissioners who have said that they do have any trans members. The total number she believes is very small and in certain parts of the country. There’s a mixed sex similar organisation in scouts that is a better option for those who don’t fit into gender norms let’s say. What an individual group has done may not be known further up the tree basically but my friend wrote to all leaders under her a few months back to clarify new arrangements and none have any trans kids.

It just feels very intense and paranoid. I see some may have been asked for this for football and I’m curious why?

I mean what has happened has made us all feel a bit intense about this all! But I don’t see joining a community club as remotely comparable to a state service like school where we show this ID.

I could see a step like this being necessary, down the line, if after Sept, that many groups have issues with boys trying to join under the radar. But I really hope that the number of disturbed parents who would sacrifice their child in the name of ideology in this way, is very small.

Birth certificates are public documents. Why is it an issue showing them?

It is asked to ensure the child is who they say they are, and that they are the appropriate age group.

there are safeguarding reasons to see evidence such as birth certificates and passports.

Kids football clubs are strict on age cut offs, Im guessing that is the reason you have to show id.

It just feels very intense and paranoid.

Its safeguarding. Its not just under 10 in guiding, its teens, up to 18. And adult volunteers too.

We really need to know that a 18 year old man isn't identifying as a 15 year old girl.

When safeguarding is dismissed as paranoia….

You know the cadet forces are community youth groups that offer activities like flying and shooting as well as outdoor pursuits similar to other youth groups? I know that ID used to be asked for cadets (don’t know if they still do) to ensure the kids met the age restrictions. I know of cases where parents tried to mislead about the age of their child to try and get the leaders to enrol them.

Some activities can be risky and I can imagine that insurance/indemnity (where appropriate) could be void if you allow an underage child to take part and they get injured or cause injury to another child.

People lie. It would be wonderful if we could just take everyone’s word for everything. But people try it on. Who hasn’t seen a situation kick off at a theme park when a kid isn’t allowed on a height restricted ride? Despite potential injury some adults still try and get their kid on rides that they are not eligible for.

Until the situation dies down I really do think GG should be asking for confirmation of ID for girls enrolling.