Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

[GrimDamnFanjo]

I have to comment on a paper that’s come for approval. It’s a policy regarding menopause at work.
theres detail regarding the experience of black women, women with disabilities, trans men and those who identify as non binary and a line that transwomen may experience pseudomenopausal symptoms due to taking hrt.
is this true?
is this any different to anyone having side effects for drugs they take or am I missing something?

Nope, I don’t get it. Wanting people of both sexes to have medical care and workplace accommodations that are appropriate to their actual needs - is hatred. Clearly I’m not imaginative enough.

Your attempt to bully me out of the thread hasn't worked though

Bullying is against the TGs.
You need to report any posts where you're being bullied to MNHQ and they'll delete them @onepostwonder

OP, that NHS policy that he posted (with a triumphant "ta-daaah") is a prime example of how a policy should not be written, so it could indeed prove useful to you in your case

No one is trying to bully you.

What I and others are trying to do is to get you to actually engage rather than making emotionally manipulative statements about how hateful we are because we have been blunt in saying that no male people go through menopause and that any male person who has electively chosen to take hormones in quantities that are not naturally found in a male body should not be covered by a menopause policy,.

You have now resorting to making a false accusation about me bullying you off the thread? Yet, I have asked you numerous times now to clarify your remarks and accusations.

That is DARVO.

I'm also insufficiently imaginative to see any bullying.

If One sees any bullying, he should report it to MNHQ.

Some groups of women have already been erased without a thought in the previous discussion and one group has not been addressed at all. Leave it up to a self-interested hobby-focused forum to remove all diversity from a topic.

Where? We've been talking about women.

Not you or your other trans-identified male friends.

The one sort of begs the other.

I cannot work out what female people would not be included in the type of policy that the OP has been discussing.

I have asked, there has been nothing but distractive tactics with no clarification though.

When your uterus stops producing eggs, give us a ring.

And this NHS policy would be giving misinformation based on 'menopause -like' symptoms. Those 'symptoms' are not menopause and can be experienced by other people who are also not going through 'menopause'.

Giving inaccurate information about menopause is a significant issue for female people.

just to add in here - will reply more fully when i get back home - highlighting black women and women with disabilities within the policy was because they often have more serious health issues due to menopause - i'm paraphrasing as I'm wary of posting the exact wording...

Fundamentally for me, the fact is that Transwomen do not go through menopause. Some TW will be advised in later years to reduce or stop the hormones they are taking, that is not menopause, it is not comparable and trying to force team it into this policy would be the same as saying that anyone who stops taking anti-depressants should be covered under the menopause policy because they have been taking a long term medication and withdrawing has side effects. There could very well be a valid argument for your workplace to implement a policy that addresses the implications of withdrawing from long term medications, but that isn’t the menopause policy.

I would also make sure I was using the terms Trans Identifying Men , and Trans Identifying Women to emphasise that TIM are men ( and therefore do not go through menopause) and TIW are women who might go though menopause .

It always helps to remember that the phrase trans woman is specifically designed to muddy the waters and confuse the unwary.

Men who take cross sex hormones are not replacing hormones, they are adding hormones to their bodies to mimic the secondary characteristics ( primarily breast development) that women develop during puberty.

To be fair, if my uterus ever started producing eggs, I might need to contact a medical textbook.

That is not an "NHS Policy Directive".

It is a policy for a local Ambulance Service. It is neither an NHS Directive nor definitive and we are not obliged to regard it as either accurate or helpful to women.

It can be perfectly legitimate to exclude some groups of women. If a policy is discussing women with physical disabilities, it is perfectly reasonable to exclude able-bodied women. And men. If a policy is discussing pregnant women, it is perfectly reasonable to exclude post-menopause women. And men.

This does not mean the policy is not diverse. Considering the needs of women of different ethnicities, ages, education, financial status etc is diversity. Considering the needs - sorry, the wants - of men who cannot, by definition, experience any of the issues the policy addresses is not diversity. It is selfish intrusion and colonisation.

🤣🤣🤣

So, onepost is still trying to make the word 'realist' an insult.

It is rather amusing. Poor chap.

No it doesn't, because you can't cross sex boundaries. You can enhance existing structures within the male body to make them more prominent, and diminish others to make them less prominent. You can give hormones that reduce natural functions of the male body such as sweating. You can even cut some structures off and create and line cavities that mimic female organs. But none of these cross the boundary of sex. They simply modify existing anatomy and physiology.

@onepostwonder I have a question that I'd genuinely like to hear the answer to. If there was one policy that applied solely to biological women, relating to accommodations that may need to be made for women coming into menopause, defined as the process of the decline and cessation of monthly periods, then another that solely dealt with transidentifying individuals (whether biologically male or female) who take hormones to aid their transition to their desired gender, relating to accommodations that may need to be made for these individuals, would you be happy? Would you feel that was equitable? If you wouldn't, why not?

i bet you don’t know other actual women who’ve been on HRT for as long as you have.

And describing men as women is incredibly offensive and an erasure of our experiences. Do better, appreciate other people, don’t appropriate someone else’s life for yourself in some tone deaf fairy tale you want to live in. Live your own life and be proud of what that is. Embrace your diversity, respect others.

I'd be interested to know what the evidence is like for this and how complete. What's the evidence like for other important groups? Has the research been done? Policies like this shouldn't just throw out ideas without them being solidly evidenced, so a simple thing to check is whether any evidence is cited and if you have the ability, have a quick look at it and check the quality/relevance.

But crucially, is any of this actually relevant for the policy? Is any special provision made for black or disabled women compared to all women? If so, can this be justified? What are trans women actually being offered? If there are special provisions for some groups and not others there is potentially a legal risk if it isn't really firmly justified. On the other hand, if none of this actually results in anything concrete in the policy it's just verbiage/activism and you can just make a comment along the lines of 'does this add anything to the policy?'. 'It would be simpler to cut these parts because they don't relate to any concrete provisions in the policy'.

It's just bizarre. As though identifying himself as a fantasist is an argument.

Plus, framing things that are demonstrably true as an 'opinion'.

The trouble is, when you say 'women', you sometimes mean men.