Transwomen - pseudumenopausal symptoms due to hrt - asked to approve work policy

[GrimDamnFanjo]

I have to comment on a paper that’s come for approval. It’s a policy regarding menopause at work.
theres detail regarding the experience of black women, women with disabilities, trans men and those who identify as non binary and a line that transwomen may experience pseudomenopausal symptoms due to taking hrt.
is this true?
is this any different to anyone having side effects for drugs they take or am I missing something?

Indeed. That famous large questionnaire was very poor work. Yet, that Trevor Project work gets referred to constantly.

I agree but other people would say all of that about Sex Matters. Don't you think its a bit wierd that the spread of the answers is pretty similar and it is unsurprising that Sex Matters would have a survey that most people support what they are saying.

Isn't it strange that the arguments always come back to toilets and changing rooms? The funny thing is, I generally avoid communal toileting/changing with other women, let alone men! If I can wait until I get home, I do. I'd imagine I'm not alone because dry robes are very popular.

I can't imagine why being able to pee next to women makes anyone feel like a true woman. My only priority when I'm using shared toilets is to get out of there.

Can you explain what you mean by the spread of the answers being similar being weird?

Do you mean the consistency of the polls across the world? Or do you mean the consistency of the answers for the JL Partners poll?

And spread as in the consistency between answers or across demographics?

Many women need the communal areas in public toilets for things that cannot wait to be dealt with though. And peeing is only one thing that women use a toilet for.

“other people would say all of that about Sex Matters.”

I would then say that they perhaps have little experience with looking at what was asked and where and how the respondents were chosen. And perhaps they also didn’t bother to look at the data that was provided to assess it for the likelihood of bias.

People are always going to dismiss polls without looking at the data but just falling back on their own prejudice about the data collection. That is human nature. However, if someone has an issue with the data, they should be able to point out the issues that go beyond the ‘the commissioning organisation is politically motivated’. If they can’t, then others will then point out the lack of credibility in the claim, surely?

What organisation is going to spend budget on collecting opinion about single sex provisions that is not politically motivated?

Oh yes, I agree. I was thinking more about the fact that transwomen (well, to be fair, the subset who would go to tribunals and populate forums - I'm sure there are some who just quietly try to get on with life without drawing attention) seem so fixated on getting into the ladies toilets, when it probably amounts to less than 5% of their day.

The political agenda of defining the terms, not mangling language and asking clear questions?

I'd suggest this is the very opposite of 'political agenda'.

'probably'...

You just do not understand the male sexual drive do you? Especially one driven by AGP.

AGPs gonna AGP.

This is where it all falls apart for trans inclusivity though. No one particularly cares what anyone else on the high street wears, or if they ask for a cappuccino in Costa in a falsetto tone. People are very accepting of diversity. No one really cares who you date or how many piercings you have, or what colour your hair is.
But force your way into a space where the safety, privacy and dignity of others are important and it comes crashing down, because actually no, you aren’t a woman, and men are quite reasonably suspected of nefarious intentions when they cross women’s boundaries.

Do you know what, I honestly probably don't. I've been very lucky to be surrounded by men who have strong boundaries on their sexual conduct. I've never been in a compromising situation. I know that's relatively unusual.

The feeling of power that comes with transgressing boundaries is a major attraction. If a male person can also take the opportunity to dehumanise, menace, exploit (even unintentionally), coerce or shame female people at the same time, even better I expect.

It is why it is so important to keep remembering the explicit menace of those videos that Billings’ self published, the video content recently from Daviana and to keep pointing to DARVO tactics.

Queer theory is about breaking down categories, boundaries and perceived barriers. Great when it is about allowing same sex attracted people to have the same opportunities that opposite sex attracted people have. But the full extent of those break downs are negative outcomes for protection of female people and children.

100%.

Men can live whatever fantasy they want to live.

Nobody should be forced to participate.

MEN who believe they get periods

There is both an Occam’s razor aspect and a Chesterton’s Fence aspect to the issue around single sex provision that means that the polls showing that people want single sex provisions is rather predictable.

If professional open population polls from different agencies and commissioned by different organisations all show similar results, it is likely that outcome is an accurate representation of the opinions of the general population. And when it comes to single sex provisions, no one has to look far to understand why people want single sex provisions. Somehow though, through messaging from media, peers and organisations people have been told to not believe the fence was there to keep lions out but was to oppress the animals kept within the fence, so to speak.

It really isn’t hard to understand that people have been taught to say words that they only believe on a superficial level. That some, certainly not the majority, people will say they believe ‘transwomen are women’ may be a reflex reaction to some, some may be true believers at certain levels of discussion.

Strip back that superficiality and of course we are going to see the opposite. That this thing that they say they believe doesn’t follow through when it is applied to real life situations. This blows their assertion of belief away.

The reason that polling consistently shows that the majority of the population holds the opinion that male people should not be included in female sport, even if their performance has been artificially limited with drugs, is really simple. It is because the majority of people don’t believe that transwomen are women despite repeating an empty mantra or saying that of course those male people are women, or even using female language for a male person.

The male posters who continue to claim that the ‘majority of the population believe that transwomen are women’ (and there are quite a few) have not one skerrick of evidence to support this. And yet, they continue to say it like a mantra to comfort themselves.

And men who claim to have menopause or that a collective of symptoms similar to some menopause symptoms makes what they experience ‘menopause’ in any way are trying to force others to act as if that subjective reality is material.

It really is another misogynistic act though.

https://www.evakurilova.com/p/trans-is-nothing-new-and-neither?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Eva has pulled together some historical letters and commentary that show just how long male people have demanded entry into female people’s groups and policies.

Male people demanding to be included in menopause policies is based on a very long history.

What is interesting though is that radical feminists have been calling this out since the 1970’s.

I think most women don't, which can lead to naive views on unisex facilities. I work in a majority male environment. I find most of the men have very frank views on the suitability of male people being in female facilities. They are under no illusions concerning the potential issues.

To my perpetual annoyance, DH doesn't really understand that we women might be triggered by the presence of a male in our single-sex facilities. But he's very clear on why a male would choose to be in our single-sex facilities in the first place: it's for the sexual thrill. Men may not always understand women, but they understand other men.

I can answer that one for you. He would not.

First Rule of Trans Club – biological women must never, under any circumstances, have something just for them.

Just to add

"The male posters who continue to claim that the ‘majority of the population believe that transwomen are women’ (and there are quite a few) have not one skerrick of evidence to support this. And yet, they continue to say it like a mantra to comfort themselves."

The issue is, of course, if you (a general 'you') believe that an identity based on your subjective reality should be treated as materially real, perhaps you are also very much inclined towards being a person who will only look superficially at other's beliefs and declare that those beliefs are deep held and abiding. When they potentially are not deeply held at all and are repeated for any number of reasons.

Meaning if someone tells you they believe something, you will not drill further at all and you will just take that as being a complete concept for any context. It may also be an indication that you are inclined to believe philosophical theories even when there is no physically proven basis to that theory, and when the theory becomes incoherent when analysed, you might be a person that dismisses that with a faith statement such as 'no one knows what might be discovered in the future' or something similar.

The belief that a male person experiences 'menopause' is a subjective reality based on partial context to force it to fit. The accurate statement would be something along the lines of 'male people experiencing side effects from exogenous hormones taken in quantities that are not naturally produced in male people and the potential withdrawal symptoms after long term use'.

It is not menopause. It never was menopause.

Which begs many questions.

I'm currently reading The Transsexual Empire by Janice Raymond and so much of what she writes, perfectly sums up the postulations of the various trans-identified men, or as Raymond refers to them, "male to constructed females", that love to talk down to women, that it's actually scary at times (the raionale behind an explanation I read here from a male poster who says he's a woman because he has never penetrated anyone, is actually brought up).

Anyway, reading this quote in particular, made me think of this topic and the trans identified males, who try to parasitically attach themselves to bodily processes like menopause, which by their very nature, can only ever affect female people, no male person in the history of the universe has ever had a uterus, much less the ability to produce, or cease to produce eggs:

But in some very real senses, female biology shapes female history—a history that men don’t have because of their sex—including the history of menstruation, the history of pregnancy or the capacity to become pregnant, the history of childbirth and abortion, the history of certain bodily cycles and life changes, and the history of female subordination in a male-dominant society. Note that I keep saying history. To deny that female history is, in part, based on female biology is like denying that important aspects of Black history are based on skin color. As with biological skin color, female biology doesn’t confer an essential femininity; rather it confers a historical reality about what it means to be born with XX chromosomes.