'Like a trap you can't escape': The women who regret being mothers

[IwantToRetire]

I'm not going to post any extracts from the article as better to read the whole content.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgkvge4rkmo

I think it's realistic, sadly, not pessimistic. Why would men ever agree to something that disadvantages them, when they're much happier with a certain degree of sexism and power? As humans, disadvantaging ourselves is fairly counter to our very natures - so in a way, I don't think men can really be blamed for wanting to hold onto their power over women.

They're happy to allow women the illusion of equality...up until a point.

They tolerate a degree of equality because it keeps women happy and cooperative, while they still get what they want for the most part. I think a lot of women subconsciously realise this, which is why they excuse men watching porn, or going to strip clubs, for instance - it's the old 1984 'Do it to Julia!' situation. Or with women being groomed into 'wanting' to have increasingly extreme and violent sex that was very rare to engage in only a few decades ago, or having one night stands and casual sex, etc.

There's a very careful balancing act going on, where society is allowing men the outlets they want the most (usually to do with sex), in order to enable women to have rights in all other areas.

But when women's demands for equality begin to interfere with what's really important to men, then they still hold the power, imo, to strip away the illusion of equality and put women back in 'our place'.

I also think that maybe there isn't a solution - maybe by virtue of our differing needs and desires, men and women as demographics are destined to always be at odds with each other.

Well I don't know. They are still powerful and as you say half the world. And women do have sons, which skews the agenda. But I do think the first step is acknowledging that, as classes, we are opposed to one another and do not want or need the same things. Women have been beating our heads against the brick wall of wanting men to see as as no different intrinsically to them for decades (centuries really). And while progress has been made in various concrete ways, places like Afghanistan, Iran and even the USA should show us that as long as our rights and progress are contingent on the goodwill of men, they are illusory.

To be honest I am interested to see what happens next with male/female relationships. More and more women are getting out of the game at younger and younger ages. There is more collective female living happening, especially older women, and groups of single mothers. I find an attitude that chimes with mine most often in the 20 something women. They look at the men of their generation and see the mask has come off, and they don't want it.

The really interesting thing is how men are responding to this withdrawal. Because it is going to compound it.

I guess my view is that slaves would never have been emancipated if they had come at it from the view of "well we have to accommodate the slavers' views and needs". Alright practically we will have to, but you can't start from that position when you are systematically oppressed. You have to at least be on your own side.

Thank you, I see what you mean..

Otoh I think the picture is a bit more complicated.

It’s true that mothers usually have the strongest early biological connection to infants.

But that doesn’t mean fathers are biologically “superfluous.” Definitely in some matrilineal societies maternal uncles play important roles in guiding children. But even in those cultures biological fathers are rarely irrelevant — they still tend to spend time with their children and contribute resources and care. The idea that the uncle completely replaces the father is often an oversimplification.

Another piece of evidence comes from research on sperm donor conception. Many children conceived this way grow up with loving parents and good family relationships, yet quite a lot of them still express a desire at some point to know something about their biological father — even if they have no wish to replace their social father. That suggests the biological connection isn’t entirely meaningless or “superfluous' .

Thanks - I'd like to do a proper longer reply later on, but for now I'll just address the Afghanistan/Iran points.
Afghanistan is a largely repressive country for women due to the ancient tribal codes such as Pashtunwali the rural populations mainly live by. But even in those areas, many people don't support the Taliban's extreme demands & punishments. Most people there - not just women- have little say in what the Taliban do.

And the population of Iran, as shown by the huge protests, is largely not in favour of Khomeini's extreme rule. He received so much support in 1979 partly because he posed as someone who would cooperate with leftists and other groups, not as someone who would impose such an extreme regime. He moved gradually & by the time it was clear what he would do, it was too late.

So I suppose I think that both those cases DO show great misogyny but they're also a lot more complex than just being regimes that most men support to oppress women.

Also...I agree with you that it's good women have more options now to be happily independent with company rather than settle for an unhappy relationship. But otoh, most women will still want kids, and half of those will be boys. I don't really it would be ideal for new generation of boys to be raised without father figures living with them .. It's a difficult issue but I don't think the majority of (straight) women will want to forgo romance and/or kids entirely.
Though I must admit...I only date women myself. Preference, but also for my own peace of mind. My friends who date boys are luckily fine, but it's sadly clear that too many Gen Z men in general have been warped by porn exposure etc early on. Hopefully restrictions on SM will make this less of an issue for future generations, though.

I don't think it is so much as you are " supposed to love it" as it can present a gear change and an opportunity to slow down and 'spread out' a bit. If we are used to a very fast rhythm of the day it can feel like a lot of time to kill. It helps if you are naturally quite domestic, enjoy cooking and gardening etc.

With my youngest two ( I was a young single parent with the first and went back into education) I took out a National Trust membership and used to visit lots of the regional properties and gardens where there would be adventure playgrounds, small animal farms, beautiful grounds etc. Or I'd go to small museums and galleries where there is usually a children's activity/play area.

There is no right or wrong way to do it......and you can still try to engage with the sorts of activities and pastimes that you yourself enjoy.It sounds as if maybe you felt that you had to meet a certain standard or live up to a particular type of role?

Great post...

my mother had a policy when I was 3-7 that she would mainly read me/let me read books that she herself had liked as a child or thought would be interesting. I wasn't allowed to watch kids' TV or films as she thought she'd been allowed to watch too much as a child (though imo kids' TV then was far less overstimulating than today's).
I wouldn't be quite the same myself but I think it's overall a good idea, as she was able to genuinely enjoy them rather than having to sit through stuff she found very boring & feign enthusiasm.

@Carla786 I really agree with your post about Afghan/Iranian women.

On a general level, I think men today - in the Western world at least - are brought up to know that women expect equality and society/the law demands it, especially via legislation such as the Equality Act and the various pieces of previous legislation that fed into it (Sex Discrimination Act, Equal Pay Act etc. etc.) But I do think that a lot of men are quite happy to regress to less equal ways if they can get away with it. I was struck when reading the Handmaid's Tale of how Offred, when talking about the removal of women's right to their own money, described how her husband not only didn't see an issue with this but secretly quite liked it. I think a lot of men secretly like a set up where they earn more, are the 'man of the house', have more control etc.

The ones who truly want and see their female partners as true equals are relatively rare.

I don't know what we do about it - enforce our rights in the short term, refuse to settle for men who will regress like this (although a lot of the time it seems to happen after marriage/children?) and hope that things change in the long run once 'traditional' set ups of and women having no say in the matter are no longer within living memory?

This is what I have hated the most though. I’d have loved to be a father I think. I’ve always felt suffocated by the “extra special bond” thing of being a mother. It’s such an enormous responsibility and means giving up so much of yourself. Physically my body was wrecked from childbirth (had to have prolapse surgery, which hasn’t fully worked). My career will never be what it could have been.

Almos every decision I make has to include them. That is huge.

I had National Trust membership. I don’t have a car when they were little. And then when I did, NT play parks are just as boring as others 😂. When they were older they just argued ALL the time, whenever we went.

Mostly I just found it boring. I’m not faster paced, I just like doing things like reading, museums. I like baking, but not with small children 😂

I couldn’t do much in the way of hobbies as dd was so clingy to me, didn’t sleep and her dad was a useless prick!

It’s much better now they are teenagers. I’d take teenagers over babies/toddlers any day!

I genuinely thought I’d breastfeed u til they were 5, homeschool and be a natural mother. Turns out I don’t have the attention span, patience or skill. I couldn’t bf either of them past a few weeks.

100% this - parenting is the first time in my life where the level of effort, reading and additional work isn't compensated with the expected/desired results.

At some point you're at the mercy of your child's temperament, unless you want to damage your bond or your child's development in favour of short term fixes

I love how affectionate my daughter is, but it would be nice to go to the toilet without her clinging to me and for me to go out for a haircut without wondering whether she is screaming at my husband while I'm out the house. He isn't useless, he is kind and patient with her and plays with her often. He'd actually be a better mum than me, and I'd be better as a dad but c'est la vie

Ariel Levy's book, 'Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women And the Rise of Raunch Culture,' is a great read on this topic. It really opened my eyes when I read it.

When I was finding being a Mum of 2 toddlers hard work my elderly neighbour described them as my "Two little blessings". I completely reframed how I thought of my role as a Mother. I miss those days now they are in their 30's and happily married.
The role of motherhood is hard because it requires a women to accept someone else's needs above their own. Hormones help.
I think unfortunately new motherhood is often portrayed with clean passive sweet smelling angels when the reality is very different.