Uta Frith, women, autism, and what Dr Stock, Helen Lewis etc think...

[Missproportionate]

Helen Lewis and Kathleen Stock have both commented on this article on X, both slightly ambiguously, as if they aren't sure what to think.

Wondered what anyone on here thinks about this? I am also ambiguous, but full disclosure: I have been diagnosed with autism at the age of 50, I haven't told very many people because I see a lot of identifying as 'neurospicy' online, and it seems to be connected to the whole 'I'm not normal, oh no I'm special' idea that I think has parallels with the queer community. I don't want to be on that bandwagon, I just want to make sense of myself.

I was diagnosed through a long process with several professionals, and a 3 hour interview with me, and a 3 hour interview with my mum about me as a child. I fitted in all the separate areas of criteria. I doubt people I work with or interact with superficially would guess ( but they may find me irritating or insensitive or interrupting - I find it hard to tell).

But it worries me a bit that women who are autistic might be seen as 'not real' and lumped in with the trans community in some way. But then how does that
then work? because as has been observed many times, girls who present with gender dysphoria are very often diagnosed/undiagnosed autistic. I think we should be leaning into attending to the autism in girls, and how an autistic girl might find being trans attractive as a way to 'solve' their feelings of not belonging. If we start to question the genuineness of their autism, we risk failing those girls even more. Don't we?

I don't know what to think.

Uta Frith interview in TLS

I’ve just had fb show me this post which I found particularly insightful

I saw that too and tend to agree.
I suppose it leaves me questioning though, should all these things be called autism? I get it is a useful term because it is now well know shorthand, but I think we can do better for people who have the diagnosis but who experience life very differently.

As for autism v introversion. I can't remember if I started a thread, or just thought about starting one a couple of years ago on that very same subject!

It's a brave thought, given the strength of feeling about identity within the 'autistic commmunity'. I wonder if the Orchid/Dandelion or Highly Sensitive Person typology could be entertained? Perhaps in a better way than Frith put forward in her interview.

I certainly think extreme introversion (exhaustion at being with others) and sensitivities to environmental factors can be disabling (especially when thinking about the social model of disability) in our modern societies. They can definitely be career-limiting, lead to feelings of overwhelm, poor self esteem etc. They could therefore be thought of by some as symptomatic of autism? And so we go round in a circle!

I certainly think extreme introversion (exhaustion at being with others) and sensitivities to environmental factors can be disabling (especially when thinking about the social model of disability) in our modern societies. They can definitely be career-limiting, lead to feelings of overwhelm, poor self esteem etc. They could therefore be thought of by some as symptomatic of autism? And so we go round in a circle!

This is the age old question of the chicken and the egg in essence.

It's also difficult because not all autistic people actively choose to withdraw from people either. Some actively choose to be with other people, even if they have limited verbal and non-verbal communication, but I do think that withdrawing to the point of disadvantage can be seen in some clinical contexts currently in restrictive and repetitive behaviours and so ticking off one of the triad/dyad of impairment requirements.

It’s not really a terribly useful term tbh.
If I say ‘DS has autism’ the first question back is ‘what type of autism?’ (And it’s not a straightforward explanation in his case either.)

@Jimmyneutronsforehead
It's also difficult because not all autistic people actively choose to withdraw from people either.

Ooh, me! <jumps up and down and waves>

I think I'm actually an autistic extrovert. I feel energised after spending time with (the right) people. I absolutely love a good party with chatty open minded type people. Too much time alone is a drain on my mental energy. But, I also need a certain amount of time alone...

The difficulties I mentioned upthread (where I don't feel like I'm masking, but things take more mental energy) are more to do with demands on me. These don't have to be social, they can be things I need to get done.

It's actually the biggest drain on my life trying to have enough social time and the lack of close likeminded others. Lots of autistic people, perhaps women especially, struggle due to wanting closeness and close relationships but struggling to find them. (The suicide rate of middle aged autistic women is v high, perhaps to do with this.)

This is where it just thinking differently to others comes in. Not playing the same social games. Being a magnet for bullies in school. This is also where, theoretically, it isn't necessarily a disability. If everyone thought like us, was more straightforward and caring about fairness and so on, the world would work better fine!

(Apologies if rambly due to tiredness)

It gets incredibly confusing because even within the same potential groupings people are so different.

Myself and my brother are both autistic (incredibly he is undiagnosed, despite it being more obvious in him, because he has had he way smoothed by the women around him and because it's so obvious people sort of make allowances for him).

Anyway we'd both be in the no LD/"high functioning" type group.

But we think quite differently! We find each other annoying. He tends to be rule-bound, and as if everything we experienced in out childhood is gospel that should always be replicated forever. I tend to question authority if I think it is wrong, analyse experiences and make changes where I think it's better. (Just one example of different thinking.)

Both sets of traits can be argued to relate to autism.

Sorry I see this is all muddled. It wasn’t when I selected! The page is easy to find on fb.

I don’t have time sadly to go through the latest posts - all so fascinating and I also think this tread respectfully explores many aspects of all this.

when I went off and explored the highly sensitive person profile, this is a feature.

Being very pro social but the needing to detach and hide in bed from exhaustion.

At a more extreme end this is very much an adhd trait. The tiredness especially.

ADHD is certainly more in line with a linear spectrum, and also one that people can be at a very mild end of but have learnt to adapt to life through chosen professions, sports, the arts etc. I also honestly think that it’s a condition (at the milder end) where background really matters to the child growing up.

In some families there will be all the opportunities to have the BCEs that support a young person to achieve in their way. Sports and the arts are very important here. And parents who are on top of life and emotionally skilled enough to support with organisation and mental health. Environmental adjustments and learning about limits, pacing, self care are really important.

Extreme adhd is relatively rare and extremely debilitating. It also inhibits learning - social and academic. These are the children that need medication and indeed do not progress without it.

Interesting post from Andy at Spectrum Gaming to Dr Naomi Fisher asking why she is platforming Uta Frith's views which haven't changed in 10 years...
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1465295138593987

I don't know anything about Andy, but I do know about Naomi Fisher. For him to say that she doesn't understand or spend time with autistic people and their families is inaccurate.

It seemed to me he was angry with Fisher so attacking her, adding to the heat but not offering much to the discussion, other than being an example of why it is hard to say challenging things without the 'autistic community' piling on.

I get why people are defensive about what seem like challenges to their identity, I really do. But it means nuance is lost, and progress in understanding autism and related difficulties is made far harder. The conversation on here has been so interesting and respectful in contrast, with those cross with Frith able to say their piece, but the discussion continues.

As someone who has some of the traits that seem to be considered adhd in an adult these days, I am really not convinced it's useful or even good to see them as a disorder until they are getting more extreme.

There are a lot of people with that personality type in my family, they are very bright in general but they are not typically the kind of people who become academics, for example. This was something that was frustrating for me as a young person who wanted to be an academic for a while, but I eventually reconciled myself to the fact that although the idea of that kind of attention to detail and the study required was appealing, at another level, I really didn't have the type of careful patience required.

However, it is also the case that a lot of my family members with these characteristics have been successful, and sometimes very successful, in other types of work. Particularly things which require a lot of dynamic action, multi-tasking, working with systems, creativity, and quick decision making with complex and/or limited information. Historically they've often gone into the military, but also things like corporate management, journalism, publishing, advertising, and so on. I am these days in public library work which suits me really well.

What strikes me is that people who are good at that stuff are actually very useful in society, you probably really need more of them then you do the kind of people who can go to the very top of an academic disapline. So maybe it's not a disability so much as just a differernt and normal personality type with a lot of adaptive ability.

Once you push things to extremes, yes, you have problems, but there is a lot more identification between that and what is actually very normal than I think is good.

Andy is a very interesting and capable chap who has set up wide support networks for ND young people. I've never found Fisher's stuff particularly useful in our family whereas Andy has always been spot on. He is generally a very mild mannered figure and this is the most controversial thing I've registered him saying. So I'd be curious to find out more about why he feels let down/surprised? I was certainly surprised by his strength of feeling

That's interesting isn't it, the strength of reaction. It seems to have hit hard on a lot of autistic advocates.

I think partly it's because Frith says some not great things, partly because of the wider political context (SEND reforms, 'overdiagnosis', PIP reforms), and partly because people are worried that her thoughts could lead to a minimising of their challenges, which they already (quite rightly) experience.

I interpreted it more as a defence of those with classic autism, plus a desire to really understand what's going on for people, esp women, with the hope support could be better targetted once diverse needs were better identified and understood.

I though Fisher lends more towards that interpretation than Frith, but there is a tendency in the autism community that no criticism or challenge is allowed, which imo is restrictive and not helping to further understanding.

Also, it's interesting how different individuals and families find support from different people. It suggests that people's needs can vary greatly, supporting the need for greater granularity of diagnosis rather than a broad brush of 'autism'?

I feel i's a wider discussion re. identity, and who gets to decide what autism is, what it is not or how it impacts on people. Not unlike gender discussion in that sense imho. Who decides what neurotypical means? Can neurotypical people be disabled, or autistic - able (as in Attwood's case)?

Perhaps Frith is right in that what we describe as autism now bears little resemblance to what was understood as autism 20 years ago. Apples and oranges.

I absolutely agree. And same with my wider family. However one can’t function without medication, nhs flagged and diagnosed. (More ADD, female.)

I suppose it’s more about if daily living is affected. Frequent tiredness/ exhaustion / burn out is an often over looked symptom. But that could have so many other reasons. Cbt and self understanding / reflection is really helpful.

I found this paper randomly yesterday which describes how it is not necessarily a life long condition and how much external factors affect it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41844271/

Mr P (ict) was diagnosed at school.