TW at women's bookclub?

[HeartyAzureCritic]

I attended a new bookclub yesterday that was advertised as women only but I think one of the people was a TW. Is this allowed? I though it had to be female only. It seemed like this person has been going for a while and people were friendly with him.

Vote with your feet and don’t return. I bet there are a few women in the group who are unhappy having a bloke there but will be too afraid to raise it and risk being ostracised.

I refuse to entertain the ‘be kind’ nonsense and very happy to make my feelings known on the matter.

If it’s advertised as being for women, then this has to exclude all men inc. men cos playing at being a woman.

I run a sewing group that’s for women only. I am happy to also attend a mixed sex sewing group but will not be inviting men to join my women’s group anytime this century.

How many members does the club have?

"Associations" that have less than 25 members are not covered by the Equality Act 2010.

The Supreme Court Judgement relates to the meaning of the word "woman" in the Equality Act. So a "Women's Book Club" with no more than 24 members could, theoretically, be made up only of men (trying desperately to avoid using the term "male members"!).

I think if you wanted to raise this with whoever organises it you could just say can they clarify the purpose of the group.

They must be aware that following the Supreme Court ruling the word woman or female means biological sex.

If they what to have a group that is open to both biological women and those who "identify" as women they should clearly state it.

Not just because its a law, but because it shows respect to other women by being honest.

And if they do welcome TW why would they not want to make that clear.

As well as meaning women who are gender critical aren't mislead about the purpose of the group.

Being honest and direct is the "sisterly" think to do!

Welcome to Mumsnet OP. I hope you find the answers you're looking for

Sounds like this book club is not a good fit for you? Don’t ruin an existing book club where people are enjoying themselves by trying to get the transwoman kicked out. That’s pointless and will just make the others in the group dislike you. If you’re feeling argumentative you could tell the organizer that you would have appreciated knowing in advance this was a ´women as a gender identity’ group not a ´women as a sex’ group. But is the potential backlash worth it? I’d just vote with my feet in this situation if I really wanted a women only group.
Maybe consider setting up a private book club with a friend and only invite women to join by invitation and whole group agreement?

Its not arguementative to point out they aren't being clear.

And who knows how others in the group feel.

It is about being honest.

The current group is either unintentionally or intentionally lying.

They should understand that this is disrespectful.

And it is false advertising.

Cant imagine why you should try and imply the OP is just being negative for the sake of it.

I’m not saying she’s being negative for the sake of it. She has the right to be pissed off if she thought it would be only women and didn’t realize that this group could include transwomen too. But this really isn’t the right hill to die on. It’s a book club. Book clubs are weird little cliques that are great fun when everyone gels and boring/torturous when everyone doesn’t gel. You have to agree on the kind of books to read (assuming it’s a club where everyone reads the same book then discusses it), you have to agree on the relative importance of the wine and cheese, on the acceptableness of the presence of extra people who read the book too and felt like coming along to discuss, and even on at what point in the evening is it time to abandon pretending to talk about the book and move on to gossiping. What happens if you were too busy to read the book this month? There are many reasons why a book club can be a poor fit.
The potential fall out of making a big deal about this group calling themselves a women’s book club when ´women and transwomen’s book club’ would be clearer is not really worth it, in my opinion. I’d argue with the organizer if I’d already paid for a period of time upfront in order to get a refund, but otherwise I’d just say it’s not a good fit for me and look for alternatives or consider starting my own club. Some fights are worth having but this one I’d put on the same level as arguing with a nightclub bouncer because they counted a group of transwomen as women for ladies’ night. Not worth the effort.

I think it probably is allowed as I don’t imagine a small book club will be covered by the Equality Act.

Is it a Women's Book Club because they’re only reading literature written by women?

In which case it should be a women’s books club.

I’d be asking the organiser to clarify why have they advertised it as a Women’s Book club if it’s not related to the sex of the authors?

As there are only two sexes then surely it’s just a book club?

Words matter and in literature words matter a great deal!!!

Assuming that there are at least 25 members of this bookclub then the situation is very similar to the Women's Institute.

• The "Women's Bookclub" is for women - no men of any description are eligible to join

• Women who identify as men are female, so would be eligible to join

• However, a "Women and Transwomen's Bookclub" is legally a "Women and Men's Bookclub" so excluding other men, on the basis that they are not "Transwomen" is unlawful sex discrimination.

If a TW is in membership then possibly the organisers are not aware that they are open to legal challenge from a man who might want to join, even if it is just to cause trouble and get a compensation payout for "hurt feelings".

If there are less than 25 members then the organisers are free to have a "Women's Bookclub" that includes TW. It might not have occurred to them that, to avoid disappointment, it would be prudent and reasonable to advertise it as a "Women's and Transwomen's Bookclub". However, if they think TWAW then they will probably just think that the OP needs "educating" or is a bigot. 🤷‍♀️

She was there first. If you don’t like it join another book club - there are plenty of them about.

If the women in the book club are happy having a male member (oo err matron) then it's not really appropriate to fuss. Don't join. Start up an "Actual Women's Book Club" and see if anyone jumps ship or if the only members you get are other people who avoided the mixed-sex "Women's" book club. If the others aren't happy and join you instead, the TW will be left as the sole member of the old club but I don't expect that will happen.

OP said it was a new book club, so I don't see how "she" could have been there first.

Yay! Let's root for the men on a Feminism Board and celebrate the exclusion of women from things that are for women! ✊

From the first post: "It seemed like this person has been going for a while and people were friendly with him."

New to the OP I think, not newly created.

That'll teach me to read carefully. Or perhaps not!

How sensible, and what an accurate description of the hazards which beset book clubs! Plus an excellent username, Otterbabies.

Message the organiser of the group, and if there is a transwoman in the group i.e a man who thinks that he is a woman.

If this is confirmed then thank then for their time explain that you are looking for a womens only book group and don't go back. If they deny it but it becomes obvious to you, then leave and explain why.

Don't over explain, don't apologise very simply the group was advertised as women only and is actually mixed sex.

The issue is that if you adverstise something for women its currently a homing becon for TRAs trying to domiate women. If you cause a fuss they just behave aggressively and you don't need that stress.

The law has been set so everyone now knows what woman means. The men that target womens groups (rather than being invited) do that are generally narcissitic and want everything to be about them. The key is to ignore them and don't let if affect you- then they get bored and bugger off. Difficult to do in toilets and changing room, very easy in a book group.

This is the type of shit that will undo alllllll the hard work we have done. It is a book club. No one is getting undressed. It is not a space for female specific issues or where anyone will be particularly vulnerable.
Objecting to a TW in a book group just looks like pure bigotry, and that risks casting shade on other efforts that really matters, like sports, prisons,.shortlists, refuges etc.
Now if said TW, or any other existing member, turns out to be a massive PITA, then vote with your feet and leave.

Pick your battles would be my advice.

@TaytofaceI wonder if a men's only group (such as a men's private social club) would happily accept a biological woman presenting as a transman? People of both sexes know the difference it makes and it is disingenious to pretend otherwise.
This is not about undressing. A women's book club can absolutely be a place for female specific issues if its members choose to discuss them. My book club has only women and it would not have the same atmosphere if there was a man in it (and for this reason, there will never be).

You want to make thAt a hill you want to die on? That is your prerogative. I would just point out that one of the major factors in the push back against gender idealists has been the sense of them going too far. When the pendulum swings again, and it will, the same will be asked of us? Did we really care about women's rights, or were we just nasty transphobes? Keeping trans identified men out of book groups I would argue could readily be classified as unnecessary and bigoted.

Again. Your choice, but this is the stuff that will come at us when the backlash starts

Hear, hear.

A voice of sanity amid the cacophony of this board. Thank you.

Just go to another bookclub if that one doesn't suit you. As other posters have said, it just seems like bigotry to focus on the consensual presence of a TW in a book club that you have just popped along to, which has been pottering happily along with the membership that it has.

Depending on the type and size of the group, it may not even fall under the Equality Act. And even if it does, the SC judgement doesn't 'disallow' anything. It just sets the parameters under which claims made under the act will be assessed.

Depending on the precise circumstances, it may or may not be the case that women (or non-trans men) will have been discriminated against. But in the case of a book group (rather than, say, a changing room or domestic violence shelter) it would likely be very hard to show that women were disadvantaged by the presence of a TW.

I would agree with you if it was just a book club. This particular one has been labelled as a woman’s book club which would appear safe for any abused or ethnic minority woman who would like to join, as they would not expect a man to be present. That’s the issue for me.

One type of shit that will undo a women-only book club is having men in it.