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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
PrettyDamnCosmic · 01/03/2026 09:59

I don't think that anyone who has received NHS treatment should be able to opt out of having their data used for research purposes. It's your duty towards society & it should be the quid pro quo of having free treatment that you contribute to research.

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 10:10

Coatsoff42 · 27/02/2026 13:23

I think the group of young people who went through some form of transitioning at that time are unwilling to share their data for reasons of privacy and paranoia that they will be on a list of people to target later on. It is very stressful and it would be easier if the reasons and parameters were explained more clearly. It is a cohort of people with neurodiversity, anxiety, co morbidities.

The fear of being outed remains very strong, stronger than a desire to demonstrate how successful it has all been. That alone must be an indication how unsuccessful it has all been.

Yes, and the people targeting them with threats and coercion would be the TRAs although they’ve been told it would be us.

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 10:30

WarriorN · 28/02/2026 08:00

An aspect never discuss is how much has PB treated children cost the nhs in terms of after care for later side effects?

It has often been discussed that gender affirming care makes them life long patients- the nhs takes costs / benefits very seriously when weighing up whether to offer treatments.

For example, messing with cross sex hormones and pbs does appear to trigger hypothyroidism in some (a woman who used to post here about her experience with PBs for precocious puberty was affected and I’m sure a couple of detransitioned people have too.) That’s life long treatment and all prescriptions, for any other condition and illness, are free.

Yes, I wonder how the NHS are protecting themselves against misdiagnosis and lawsuits for compensation for ‘Never Events’

For a start, what are the robust and well researched diagnosis guidelines that would lead a clinician to prescribe puberty blockers/cross sex hormones?

I know there are additional waivers and special conditions for drug trials but no one can sign away their rights and any trial still has to have patient safety as its utmost priority. I just can’t see how they can demonstrate that is the case with this trial.

From the summary.

Key Aspects of NHS Never Event Compensation

  • What Constitutes a Never Event: These are patient safety incidents that are "wholly preventable" because guidance or safety recommendations are available at a national level and should have been implemented.
  • Examples: Wrong-site surgery (e.g., operating on the wrong limb), retained foreign objects post-surgery (e.g., swabs, instruments), misplacement of gastric tubes, or administering incorrect medication.
  • Proving Negligence: You must demonstrate that a duty of care was breached (the event happened) and that this breach directly caused, or made worse, an injury (causation).
  • Compensation Factors: Payouts vary based on the severity of the injury, the impact on lifestyle, required future care, and loss of earnings.
DrTemporary · 01/03/2026 12:29

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 10:30

Yes, I wonder how the NHS are protecting themselves against misdiagnosis and lawsuits for compensation for ‘Never Events’

For a start, what are the robust and well researched diagnosis guidelines that would lead a clinician to prescribe puberty blockers/cross sex hormones?

I know there are additional waivers and special conditions for drug trials but no one can sign away their rights and any trial still has to have patient safety as its utmost priority. I just can’t see how they can demonstrate that is the case with this trial.

From the summary.

Key Aspects of NHS Never Event Compensation

  • What Constitutes a Never Event: These are patient safety incidents that are "wholly preventable" because guidance or safety recommendations are available at a national level and should have been implemented.
  • Examples: Wrong-site surgery (e.g., operating on the wrong limb), retained foreign objects post-surgery (e.g., swabs, instruments), misplacement of gastric tubes, or administering incorrect medication.
  • Proving Negligence: You must demonstrate that a duty of care was breached (the event happened) and that this breach directly caused, or made worse, an injury (causation).
  • Compensation Factors: Payouts vary based on the severity of the injury, the impact on lifestyle, required future care, and loss of earnings.

I think you are seeing conspiracy where disorganisation is a much more likely explanation.

Example: a patient discharged from gender clinic on T develops chronic painful urogenital atrophy. But this patient has changed their NHS number and sex marker. They are not known anymore to the gender clinic. The GP knows they are trans, although it is not recorded on the patient's notes (which are redacted of any previously identifying sex information) thinks: this is probably a result of the T. Writes to the gender clinic. Who say, this is not our problem, please ask the urologists and the pain clinic for advice.

Where is the joining up of gender - treatment - outcome ? It isn't that the data is hidden. It simply doesn't exist.

BonfireLady · 01/03/2026 12:42

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 10:30

Yes, I wonder how the NHS are protecting themselves against misdiagnosis and lawsuits for compensation for ‘Never Events’

For a start, what are the robust and well researched diagnosis guidelines that would lead a clinician to prescribe puberty blockers/cross sex hormones?

I know there are additional waivers and special conditions for drug trials but no one can sign away their rights and any trial still has to have patient safety as its utmost priority. I just can’t see how they can demonstrate that is the case with this trial.

From the summary.

Key Aspects of NHS Never Event Compensation

  • What Constitutes a Never Event: These are patient safety incidents that are "wholly preventable" because guidance or safety recommendations are available at a national level and should have been implemented.
  • Examples: Wrong-site surgery (e.g., operating on the wrong limb), retained foreign objects post-surgery (e.g., swabs, instruments), misplacement of gastric tubes, or administering incorrect medication.
  • Proving Negligence: You must demonstrate that a duty of care was breached (the event happened) and that this breach directly caused, or made worse, an injury (causation).
  • Compensation Factors: Payouts vary based on the severity of the injury, the impact on lifestyle, required future care, and loss of earnings.

Yes, I wonder how the NHS are protecting themselves against misdiagnosis and lawsuits for compensation for ‘Never Events’

Participating in smear campaigns against any senior doctor that dares express an opinion that sex is immutable and sometimes important? Obviously this is purely hypothetical and not an accusation.

To continue the hypothesis... It's the ultimate "double or quits" strategy, as it's cumulative. That's just one step in the strategy.

Once you've started doubling down on something - for example, by already giving a trial the go ahead if you're the MHRA - you're putting the quit option further out it reach. If you're doubling down at that point, it's going to take double double the effort than it would have done before. Because the first double-down was when you gave the trial the go-ahead in the first place (despite the existing evidence of significant safety concerns).

Anyone in any such hypothetical scenario would have to work super hard to come up with ways to keep this out of the courts.... just long enough for each individual person who has been involved to find reasons why it wasn't their fault.

Luckily for any such person, there's a game of Accountability Pass the Parcel that can be played between individual hospitals (and their policies), trusts, NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care. None of them will ever need to open the parcel. So there will undoubtedly be lawsuits and payouts, but nobody will ever need to be accountable for what went wrong.

Edited for clarity.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 01/03/2026 13:46

DrTemporary · 01/03/2026 09:33

Available resource in the National Back Office (NBO) – this is a specialist team that can trace health records “by hand” in cases involving incomplete information or where details are ambiguous (e.g. distinguishing between individuals with similar details). Their help may be needed; until the data is seen it cannot be known how much time/effort may be needed from them. This might delay the work. NB A member of the NBO team has been part of the multidisciplinary team since its inception.
It is not known how easy/difficult it might be to find and match records for the same person held under different NHS numbers until the quality of the data is known (i.e. after it has been uploaded to NHS England).

Time and effort will be considerable. I can tell them that for free! I can't understand from what you posted (as I am thick or tired) what the confidentiality bit implies - can patients individually opt out or not? This (This allowed the UoY to begin to work with trusts on implementing the three-month period that had been agreed upon to allow any patients who wished to do so to opt-out of having their data used in the research) implies they can which would be hugely important in terms of bias.

Ooo! Were those audits published?

Yes: here in 2022 https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121
and here in 2025 https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/13/4/353
Both open access.

Time and effort will be considerable. I can tell them that for free!

I agree.

"can patients individually opt out or not? This (This allowed the UoY to begin to work with trusts on implementing the three-month period that had been agreed upon to allow any patients who wished to do so to opt-out of having their data used in the research) implies they can"

It certainly reads that patients can opt out.

which would be hugely important in terms of bias.

I guess that would depend on:

  • whether those opting out were representative of those remaining in the study or not
  • what proportion opted out.

Although an estimate of impact might be made from the size of the proportion opting out, the researchers would have no information about those who opted out, so could not know if specific populations were under-represented in the study and therefore the degree and nature of bias.

It would be interesting to know how many patients the researchers expect to opt-out, based on "outcomes" studies with other patient groups, and whether or not this turned out to be a good predictor or not.

EDIT: For clarity for anyone else reading this thread later on: This "Sub-thread" discussion is about the delayed Data-Linkage Study on outcomes that was supposed to be part of the Cass Review, ie. not the Puberty Blockers Trial.

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 15:03

DrTemporary · 01/03/2026 12:29

I think you are seeing conspiracy where disorganisation is a much more likely explanation.

Example: a patient discharged from gender clinic on T develops chronic painful urogenital atrophy. But this patient has changed their NHS number and sex marker. They are not known anymore to the gender clinic. The GP knows they are trans, although it is not recorded on the patient's notes (which are redacted of any previously identifying sex information) thinks: this is probably a result of the T. Writes to the gender clinic. Who say, this is not our problem, please ask the urologists and the pain clinic for advice.

Where is the joining up of gender - treatment - outcome ? It isn't that the data is hidden. It simply doesn't exist.

I’m not sure where the ‘conspiracy’ is in my post? I was wondering how the NHS/this trial specifically are planning to protect themselves from future malpractice lawsuits.

I’m not sure they will have a leg to stand on.

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 15:05

BonfireLady · 01/03/2026 12:42

Yes, I wonder how the NHS are protecting themselves against misdiagnosis and lawsuits for compensation for ‘Never Events’

Participating in smear campaigns against any senior doctor that dares express an opinion that sex is immutable and sometimes important? Obviously this is purely hypothetical and not an accusation.

To continue the hypothesis... It's the ultimate "double or quits" strategy, as it's cumulative. That's just one step in the strategy.

Once you've started doubling down on something - for example, by already giving a trial the go ahead if you're the MHRA - you're putting the quit option further out it reach. If you're doubling down at that point, it's going to take double double the effort than it would have done before. Because the first double-down was when you gave the trial the go-ahead in the first place (despite the existing evidence of significant safety concerns).

Anyone in any such hypothetical scenario would have to work super hard to come up with ways to keep this out of the courts.... just long enough for each individual person who has been involved to find reasons why it wasn't their fault.

Luckily for any such person, there's a game of Accountability Pass the Parcel that can be played between individual hospitals (and their policies), trusts, NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care. None of them will ever need to open the parcel. So there will undoubtedly be lawsuits and payouts, but nobody will ever need to be accountable for what went wrong.

Edited for clarity.

Edited

Ah, that makes sense. So they are just ensuring that no individual will be accountable and are happy to play with taxpayers money like the various hospitals operating unlawful policies and unlawfully discriminating against their employees?

So essentially they can harm kids on a mass scale and gets away with it? A dangerous game.

BonfireLady · 01/03/2026 15:28

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 15:05

Ah, that makes sense. So they are just ensuring that no individual will be accountable and are happy to play with taxpayers money like the various hospitals operating unlawful policies and unlawfully discriminating against their employees?

So essentially they can harm kids on a mass scale and gets away with it? A dangerous game.

Essentially, yes.

I guess on a positive note, it won't bankrupt the NHS. As with the NHS Fife case (which I do appreciate is in Scotland, so the rules may be different) the NHS is only financially liable up to a certain amount for legal costs. The rest comes from another magical pot of taxpayers' money.

All rather convenient.

Well, unless you've had your body permanently damaged after having been taken along into a pathway of "care" that turned out to be anything but.

Money won't bring back previously healthy bodies, or negate the life-impacting (and life-limiting? 😞) impact of becoming medically dependent just to function as close to your previous level of health as possible. But I do hope that everyone who has been harmed in this scandal as a result of acting on the advice of medical professionals gets some form of financial compensation.

I would also love to think that those responsible will be brought to justice on an accountability level. But they won't.

DrTemporary · 01/03/2026 18:37

@JustSomeWaferThinHam I do apologise. I have re-read and I have no idea how I misread the substance of your post so badly. Please ignore my response!

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 18:56

DrTemporary · 01/03/2026 18:37

@JustSomeWaferThinHam I do apologise. I have re-read and I have no idea how I misread the substance of your post so badly. Please ignore my response!

🤣 no worries - I’m sure I’ve done that at times.

Coatsoff42 · 01/03/2026 21:39

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 01/03/2026 10:10

Yes, and the people targeting them with threats and coercion would be the TRAs although they’ve been told it would be us.

I’m not sure they know who would threaten them, it’s just a lot of paranoia. The transitioning has only made all the anxiety worse, it’s not a cure for mental health worries, it just adds a new all encompassing layer to worry about for the rest of your entire life.

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