John Davison BAFTA Tourette’s incident and competing rights

[slet]

It’s interesting how this is being discussed atm. I see Ash Sarkar has framed it as an example of competing rights between disabled people and victims of racism, forgetting about intersectionality. But there is a struggle from those on the extreme left to see how women’s rights are compromised by ceding to TRAs.

not expressing myself very well but thought it had some interesting parallels with the sex and gender debate.

Newyearsameme16
You seem to be saying that black people from the US suffer PTSD from the use of the n-word.

And since they have PTSD, then someone with a disability - should apologise because their disability triggered their PTSD?

Yes, the onus is on the two famous actors to show grace to the man who has a life destroying condition.

Sticks and stones will break my bones
but words will never hurt me

sadly those at the top of the "entitlement heap"
have convinced themselves that they are so right
that the self censorship words no longer exist

(we women used to being called bigots know otherwise)

the priveledged USA "minorities" are so unused to coping with reality
"birthing persons" "cervix havers"
that they freak when the rest of us defend sanity.

I think you’ve totally missed the point actually. I have my point of view and I don’t need yours forced on me.

well I've still got my tape copy of Black Sunday and they sure as hell say it a lot there.

You keep avoiding the points I make and coming back with a small irrelevant distraction.

Engage in the points I am making , thats how we discuss things and come to a shared understanding.

What have I done that is racist and why can I not listen to hip hop? Also Sen Dog is black AF & Cuban, dunno why you would not think the hill are hiphop

"I very much enjoy their music"

Yes. Yes I am sure you do. Just as sure that you didn't have to go check their wiki page to spell B-real

Uhm, yeah, precisely - the onus is on non-Tourette's people to understand a person with Tourette's has nothing to acknowledge or apologise for. They should not apologise for their disability.

No. That doesn't hold true. He said the N word because they were black. I doubt he would have said the N word if there were two white women up on stage instead. The tic was triggered by the people on stage, so yes, it was at them, or because of them, if that sounds better to you.

That isn't to say he had intent, or that he's to blame, or that he was being racist.

But verbal Tourette's tics are clearly frequently directed towards specific individuals, not just random obscene words shouted into the air (although I'm sure they can be that too)!

Yes that's fine. Stay in your narrow field of vision. It seems very bleak in there.

Ah but you're not in charge of the space 😃 You carry on being your edgy hilarious self. It's going really well.

Lol, I’m really not. You seem to be attaching meaning to JD’s words, due to the fact they are in some way relevant to the scenario in which he uses them.

No. He sees something, and in a flash, his brain blurts out the exact wrong thing to say in that context. It doesn’t mean he means it. It just means the specific context triggers the tic.

For the thousandth time, I didn’t say he should apologise, I said in that five paragraph statement he put out, he could’ve said ‘MBJ and DL, I wish you didn’t have to experience that word on your own special night, a word which I fully acknowledge and understand the painful connotations of’. How fucking difficult is that??

FFS
His brain makes him say the LEAST appropriate word.
hence bomb jokes with the police
bitch jokes with the queen
queer jokes with anybody gay
dying jokes with a cancer patient

the more stressed he is, the more extreme the word
so the queen was more grown up than those silly actors

‘On your own special night’?

Are they 6?

Getting back to the OP. I can actually see the correlation with the sex and gender debate in the following way:

Both gender believers and (in this case) the black men on stage are relying on external factors to keep them comfortable.

Trans people want validation from society that they are what they say they are.

And POC clearly do not want to hear racist slurs hurled in their direction.

I think rationality has to come into play here, in both scenarios.

Transpeople will have to acknowledge that many people will not see them as they are.

And these men (in this situation) will have to acknowledge that the slur was unintended and caused by a disability.

I truly hope John Davidson is alright. I don't know much about him but he must be feeling even worse than ever with all this hoohaa, after what should have been an amazing night for him.

In both the above scenarios I think it's useful to think about who you would rather be on each side of the debate.

Trans rely on lies to be happy, gender criticals have the truth.

JD lives with a truly life limiting disability every day over which he has no control. The men on stage have a choice as to whether or not to make a big deal of it, it's just one moment in their lives (albeit a significant one).

Obviously intentional racism should be challenged and I think that's where everyone's outrage should be focused.

I hope I've worded this correctly.

Weirdly this demonstrates just how Tourettes is effectively 'colour blind'.

People with it say the most offensive thing for the situation they are presented with. It doesn't matter who. It's not targeted. It's not intentional.

I haven't bothered collecting screenshots because the very widespread ableism & crass stupidity really were too much, but here's quite a mild example of the genre. There's plenty more.

Yes. So how are we disagreeing? I said: "I understand that his involuntary tics mean that he shouted the n word at them, without wanting to." and someone argued that it wasn't AT them. But it seems you agree that it is triggered by his brain making him say the least appropriate thing for the person. So towards/at/because of them, without any malicious intent on his part.

I think the simplest way is to echo the PP - those who understand Tourette’s will not be offended by Tourette’s. That’s not to say those actors aren’t entitled to feel what they felt in that moment, but again to repeat, you would hope those two non-Tourette’s sufferers would show grace and compassion to John Davidson. And I hope they will and everyone else can go away and educate themselves.

Still not telling me what I have done that is racist, or why.

I see you're not one of those people who has discussions, just one who get more and more high pitched and shouts the same insult again and again.

Good day to you sir.

Nope. I’m saying that two black men should be able to go to film ceremony and not have to experience this while onstage in front of millions. If they unfortunately do, as in this case, that this negative experience and the embarrassment along with it can be recognised and not dismissed (not apologised for by John Davidson).

I was trafficked as a child and someone shouting that at me might trigger my PTSD. (Note to whomever hates that word, I learned it from my doctors and psychotherapists. It's a perfectly valid word that accurately describes how certain events, stimuli, or situations can cause the inception or exacerbation of PTSD symptoms.) I know it is deeply hurtful to many black people even if they know the use is not intentional. It still hurts.

I also have Tourettes so I very much understand how verbal tics are involuntary. It reminds me of my PTSD in that both can be set off by external things and I have no control at all over them. I know how I'm prone to blurt out the most mortifying thing I can think of when I'm under stress. It's like the command "don't think of an elephant" leads to thinking of elephants (bc your mind first conjures the thing, then applies the prohibition). I would still feel awful if I blurted it out and would understand that some people are very likely to be hurt by it, even if they understand it was involuntary. If possible, I'd apologize for hurting them but I would also try to educate them about Tourettes and how I had no control over what I blurted out. With luck, they might explain their hurt and both sides would learn something. Or not but I would want to acknowledge that I'd unintentionally hurt them and that their hurt was real.

If it was colour blind he would've called the Queen an N word, and the two black men a pair of queens.

I don't know why people argue that the Tourette's doesn't target people? Acknowledging that the words are 'chosen' by the brain based on appropriateness to the person they're shouted at is not the same thing as saying he has intent, he wanted to say it, he's racist, or he's targeting them. But the slurs or insults clearly 'match' the recipient.

The fact that a tics is situation specific does not mean that it is targeted at an individual.