What's the deal guys?

[shadesOfTeal]

I don't think this post is going to last long but what's the deal with hating trans women so much? I've been a women for 13 years of my life since 18 and it's never been a problem. Suddenly I'm not only talk of the town but also an evil man stealing everyone's rights away from them? I wasn't much of a boy as a kid anyway but. I just wanted to ask like what's the deal? Why do you hate the idea of me existing so much? What have I personally done to you that's been so bad? I feel like I need to be careful with my words because it'll be easy to accuse me of all sorts but I've done no harm to anyone. If you want to ask a trans woman some honest questions then please do, I don't usually talk about it in my day to day life and that, I'm pretty down to earth and will help you understand as much as possible. But I'd like to ask the people that hate me so much, can we ever get along? Please don't assume I'm what the internet and the media says I am though, I'm not like that at all! I just want us all to get on and I'm sick of having my life debated every 5 minutes.

Well, I could have said opinions but we all know how genuinely held beliefs are just as good as genuine lived existence.

I was not born in the UK, no.

Foolishly checked back in to just read this latest, which I now regret bc I have to reply before going to bed.

I may be wrong (haven't read the intervening posts), so apologies if so, but this seems to be to sum up best my concerns about gender ideology.

If (and, again, apologies if you're not - no time to read everything to check) applying misogyny to yourself on the basis that you see yourself as a woman, and homophobia to yourself on the basis that you see yourself as gay, even though not all women and not all gay people would agree...

...then you're leaving those women and gay people with no word to describe the at-least equally valid way in which they see themselves, and the equally significant and damaging prejudice they face.

The strongest argument I can think of against trans women "being" women is that, if they take this word, that leaves those of us who disagree with no noun at all to describe ourselves. Whereas, if they accept the distinction between trans women and women, both groups retain words to describe and advocate for themselves and their rights.

The side of the debate that argues that the members of an historically-oppressed demographic should lose their ability to refer in clear terms to their oppression at all - that we should all lose our ability to refer to women throughout history, or to the abuse of Afghan women who've never even heard of gender ideology, or to female firsts, or to Saudi law, without relying on an adjective equally applicable to animals - simply cannot be the side with the strongest, most ethical argument.

We deserve a word - a single word - to reflect our reality.

Even if you don't personally believe that our sexed reality is "factual" (to which I say, see Marie's comment above), others do, and deserve the language to express this belief. And it's not insignificant that several millennia of human history and multiple countries globally stand with them. As long as women's sex affects them, whether it's needing to describe and teach the past unambiguously or to challenge and change the present effectively, to argue that we should be left with no word with which to do this is, to me, the ultimate act of oppression.

Do see my above re: this.

If all beliefs are equal, why deprive one - just one, I can't think of any equivalent group to which this is happening - of the language necessary to name itself?

(Unless that one, or those it names, really do sit at the very bottom of these awful wheels or hierarchies of oppression that in many cases - I'd say very tellingly - duly no longer even name them).

NB. To pre-empt anyone throwing the demeaning scrap of nominalised adjective "female" at us (what "females"? badgers? fish? plant parts?), there's ample evidence that this is being appropriated now, too, in any case.

I'll shuddup now. Just skimmed, and guilty again of some overly earnest soap-boxing. Rest urgently required for the tiny possibility of less emotive (and painfully repetitive) posting tomorrow!

It really is that simple. And flowing from that, we don’t want non female people in female spaces.

Yes, it's that simple but the OP will not be able to accept that because that would mean admitting to himself that he is not a woman. It's not going to happen.

the BBC thing with the "pregnant people" I didn't like that at all. Whoever made that decision didn't have anyone's best interest at heart

So does that mean you don't believe that trans men are men? That a pregnant trans man should be described as a woman? In fact, that trans men are women.

Something I agree with you on.

There is a legend where one trans activist, the chosen one, will rise up go onto MN and change the opinions of all posters and be the saviour of all trans people around the world.

Every now and again there is one of these threads, usually by a MtF trans person (who is attracted to women), with many self-aggrandising posts trying to change everyone else's opinions. The posts are very egotistical and really shows much about the psyche of the phenomenon.

Has he naffed off back to reddit to crow about how he told us how it is?

We also get confrontational and verbose posts from people who I think are F to M, very young, intelligent but silly, and inexperienced, very reminiscent of the unhappy mean girls I knew years ago whose unhappiness about their changing pubertal manifested as cutting or eating disorders.

Two of those in that long-ago group were girls with daddies who were very disappointed not to have had sons, which was probably another motivator, and I suspect it is still there, misogyny hasn't gone away.

Poor kids, confused by biological change, possibly on the spectrum, possible gay, and often in 'good' schools that encourage competition for social status. I hope slowing down on hormonal poisons might give them a chance to grow up and grow out of genderism.

catiette

Great posts. Sadly, what you say has been explained at length several times over on other threads. Some points have been explained getting close to word for word.

Of course, the word female has also been repurposed as well, just in case you missed it. Hence we have explained that there are NO words unique to us at all and explained in detail how that impacts us.

I am hoping that if enough of us say it, the poster will actually take it on board. So far, no luck.

Pass, I don't care.

See, this is what I find inconsistent.

Transitioning as a teen means that male puberty was underway. Yet you, onepost, claimed to have a ‘female’ puberty.

Which is impossible for all the reasons pointed out on other threads, but also impossible because you also went through male puberty.

”I've never penetrated anyone, nor did I ever had the urge to do it. Your genuinely held beliefs don't rewrite or recontextualise my sexual experience, nor the experience of my partners.”

And there it is again! The misogyny at the foundation of such philosophical belief.

Female people have been redefined as those who ‘have not penetrated another person’.

The hypocrisy of the following sentence is like a beacon. Some male people ‘never penetrate’ another person. That doesn’t make them ‘female’.

The definition of heterosexual is not ‘one partner penetrates while the other partner has never penetrates’. This is yet another example of a group of people who seek to destabilise the language to leverage that language for their own purposes while that destabilisation causes harm to the group that original definition covered.

If a male person has sex in any way with another male person, they are either bisexual or homosexual.

Simple question is this mass killing man trans or not? Or the Canadian one the week before.

Rhode Island Rink Horror: 10 Chilling Posts Of Trans Shooter Resurface Before Deadly Rampage
Robert Dorgan's online messages reveal disturbing mindset as daughter confirms long-standing mental health struggles

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rhode-island-ice-rink-shooting-1779578

There are "trans" people who say this stuff all the time online then some of them go and kill people. It happens again and again and it seems to be happening more now.

You ask why women are worried about trans stuff and don't believe in it. Why would you when this type of evil happens?

You transitioned c 2013 so you know things have changed mid 2000s everyone would have been fine calling anyone like this guy an evil crossdresser. Then apparently suddenly that was offensive. It was worse to misgender than shooting your family.

Your "community" decided that you would adopt violent men in dresses and stand up for their "rights" and hate nonviolent women who say things. No one forced you to do that in fact some "trans" people said it was dumb.

You also decided the BIGGEST and most important thing for trans people was letting men beat women in sports. Ok guys obsessed with sports are very much guys actually. Our entire society is obsessed with them they have entire channels for men's sports. This Rhode Island Killer was obviously a bad tempered right wing jock who probably bullied people for being dweebs yet now he is a real "trans woman" because he also had a fetish for dresses. South Park was a comedy not a plan for the future.

Now everyone thinks you are all scummy liars. You blame women for all this.

Oh no the evil feminists made everyone hate us.

Yes the the Terfs deserve a bunch of credit, yet they were outnumbered hugely. The only way the got anywhere is this stuff is mind numbingly stupid that people got sick of it.

🦋 🦋 🦋 🦋 🦋

I wouldn’t bother engaging in discussion with someone that knows they will never be a woman but refuses to acknowledge and accept that fact.
It’s futile.

Stock take reveals ‘the deal’ is that males can wear what they like, use whatever names they like, refer to themselves using whatever pronouns they choose, be in consensual relationships with who they choose, hold down jobs they perform well at and be treated with the same dignity and respect as all humans.

What they can’t do is be categorised as female, simply on the basis of them not being female.

They can object to single sex provision, seeking to ban it and replace it with single gender identity provision. What they can’t do is want there to be single sex provision but for it to include them - thus making it mixed sex.

This having been clearly articulated across many posts, does @shadesOfTeal accept that there is no hate and no position that limits transwomen in any way other than categorising them as male.

I understand that transwomen’s identities can be all consuming to them and this focus can be debilitating and limiting. The solution to this is building resilience and learning to accept not everyone sees them they way they see themselves and learning to navigate the very few contexts that are single sex whilst not framing this exclusion as indicative of hate or denial of subjective experience.

I guess what is left out of the above is the difference between those who hold deep levels of sympathy for the impact of the above - usually because they see being trans as an unfortunate affliction, and those who hold little or no sympathy because they see it as a paraphilia or indicative of homophobia and/or misogyny. Both understandings lead to the same ‘deal’. I can see one being gentler on the OP, but not in a way that changes ‘the deal’.

The problem is, if you see women defending their boundaries and rights as hate, what options do you accept as reasonable?

I have no hate for you personally, I've no idea who you are. I want you to be safe and healthy.

But you're not a woman, you never will be, and I don't want anyone male in women's spaces. If third spaces work better for you, great. But not the women's, ever.

Do you see that as hate? Because if so, your olive branch is really a demand for capitulation and nothing more.

I am late to the thread, but no one hates you @shadesOfTeal they just want you to stay out of women's spaces that don't belong to you.

See how simple it is?

Shades has long gone, TheKeatingFive, with my good wishes because there was a possibility that they were genuinely 'confused' and even 'scared' [when someone says they feel scared, I err on the side of caution and take it seriously] and I suggested this wasn't the place, and we weren't the people, to get the clarity he needs.

onepostwonder has a different MO, which includes wrongly assuming we're all straight, and then telling us we're the Wrong Kind Of Lesbians because we haven't learn't from our own oppression to #bekind to transfolk.

I don't expect onepost will stay around much longer either..

I don't expect onepost will stay around much longer either..

Hmmm, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that! I get the impression the massive oversharing on here is cathartic and not about to stop any time soon.

I don't think that the OP is in the UK.

The only reason men come on here is that they are pissed about the recent court cases regarding women only spaces, and what to plead with or threaten women.

They claim MN is full of trans hatred because they dont know the site. They have no interest in anything that doesnt prioritise them, and can only be involved if they are the focus of a thread.

Its easy to see how self obsessed they are by the way they are responding to the court cases on reddit. Absolutely no compression as to why single sex service exist. No idea about the lives of women and children.

Reddit is a strange environment. The contradictions that make no sense that are tolerated and become the norm. The obvious lies.