Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GLP v EHRC judgement is coming tomorrow

1000 replies

DownhillTeaTray · 12/02/2026 14:44

Listing in the Administrative Court for tomorrow not before 11am: read out of the judgment in our challenge to the EHRC Interim Guidance.

https://bsky.app/profile/goodlawproject.org/post/3meo6ow7ow22k

Jolyon Maugham KC (@goodlawproject.org)

Listing in the Administrative Court for tomorrow not before 11am: read out of the judgment in our challenge to the EHRC Interim Guidance.

https://bsky.app/profile/goodlawproject.org/post/3meo6ow7ow22k

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
AnSolas · 14/02/2026 16:19

71Alex · 14/02/2026 15:53

I thought this too. But the judge also says it's fine to do stuff as long as you are not offering less favororable treatment to anyone.

So a workplace could offer individual toilets, 'trans-inclusive womens' and 'trans inclusive mens'. The individual toilets, provided there are enough of them, satisfy the requirements of the regulations. And the other toilets are fine to have as well (assuming they're not offering anyone less favourable treatment and comply with the regulations for mixed-sex). So no need to look at the 'proportionate' single sex test.

Edited

That is the law anyway

My underline to reword

Sanitary conveniences
20.—(1) Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences shall be provided at readily accessible places.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless—
(a)..
(b)..
(c)separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each (individual) convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside. or separate rooms containing conveniences more than one convenience are provided for men and women

It just that employer has stuck W/M signs on them and created a policy which said if it is marked W only some staff can use them and these staff cant use the ones marked M etc.

DownhillTeaTray · 14/02/2026 16:20

What I find interesting is what P-t-d says about the implications for Kelly and Peggie. And that the law, thanks to the GLP, has now actually changed.

OP posts:
nicepotoftea · 14/02/2026 16:26

FallenSloppyDead2 · 14/02/2026 15:50

That is why I am looking for a rebuttal to the lie.

From what KeepToiletsSafe says (I don't want to summon her, she deserves a break!), if you set up separate toilets for 'women and TIMs' and 'men and TIFs' you will probably have to use enclosed rooms, not cubicles. There are also issues around potential discrimination.

If you allow TIMs and TIFs into opposite sex, existing single-sex toilets, then they lose their single sex exemption and @Another2Cats ' understanding of paragraph 77 becomes valid - you must let everyone in.

Either way, the TIMs won't be happy.
IANAL and happy to be corrected

If you allow TIMs and TIFs into opposite sex, existing single-sex toilets, then they lose their single sex exemption and ' understanding of paragraph 77 becomes valid - you must let everyone in.

I also think that regardless of the theoretical debate on whether there could be circumstances where it would be lawful to include all women but exclude men who don't have the pc of gender reassignment; in practice, 'inclusive toilets' have a policy that nobody's use should be challenged, so nobody would be excluded.

AnSolas · 14/02/2026 16:26

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 16:14

You also need to consider what proportion of the trans population could legitimately use disabled toilets due to disability. Given the number of canes, wheelchairs etc seen at TRA protests, what we know about the devastating impact of testosterone on female pelvic floor, the very sub-optimal outcomes of genital surgeries, the level of autism and other mental health conditions, it seems likely that a very significant proportion of trans individuals could legitimately use the disabled/accessible toilets due to disability.

That is why I did not limit the head count to GI but used "any other who wants a MSS not SSS" because it also included the Pee-Next-Me allies

MyAmpleSheep · 14/02/2026 16:33

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 13:57

Ok, you could set up a group for indigenous English ethnicity.

’Black’ is also not a race or an ethnicity.

You do seem incredibly reluctant to accept that white people have the same protection from discrimination as black people.

Ok, you could set up a group for indigenous English ethnicity.

You would be on shaky ground. You would have to work very very hard indeed to convince a court that "indigenous English" wasn't intended to mean and operated as if it meant "white only".

DownhillTeaTray · 14/02/2026 16:35

Looks like the GLP have managed to get Sandy Kemp's arse smacked. Ha ha.

(My bold below):

Protect-the-dollz
2h ago

Really badly for us.

Afaik Darlington Nurses are not appealing, so not really relevant.

But the reasoning in Peggie was grounded on Croft which this judgement finds, at para 50, to no longer be law post FWS.

Peggie also assumed that FWS vould not have intended a blanket ban on trans people accessing single sex spaces. GLP confirms exactly the opposite.

In Kelly, the decison which was most in our favour, the tribunal found that the meaning of male and female under the work regs could be trans inclusive. GLP found the opposite.

It's going to have considerable negative repercussions.



Scipling
2h ago

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell as a laywoman, the impact on the workplace is severe. There really doesn’t seem to be any way to interpret it as anything other than awful.

It may be possible to appeal - I personally don’t have the background to understand whether or not an appeal is realistic. I also have no idea how long the appeals process takes.

I also don’t know how quickly this is likely to be applied in the real world. I don’t know if employers are expected to act immediately, wait for EHRC guidance, try to work out exactly what does and doesn’t count as a workplace in public facilities etc.

With all of this nonsense, to me it essentially appears to come down to this:
Unless something major changes such as a successful appeal or legislation, domestic remedies are simply not going to happen. This means that our current hope is Dr McCloud’s case filed with the ECtHR. It’s just about possible that politicians may try to fix some of this if the case is accepted and communicated, but most likely we will have to wait for a ruling. The timescale for this is glacial unless the ECtHR issues a pilot judgment of some sort, or a rule 39 application is successful (unlikely)

Or to put it bluntly, this crap is going to continue for years unless our government suddenly decides to respect human rights.

There is a strong possibility that the next general election will come before the ECtHR do anything useful, and Labour are unlikely to win unless they start making major changes fast. Depending on which bunch of extreme right lunatics get voted in, they may try to exit the ECHR, but I doubt that will be quick or easy.
The only other possibility I can see is that the CoM decides that we are in breach of Goodwin, and reopens compliance monitoring. If they do, that won’t force a quick fix but it might just be enough to increase pressure to the point where the government decide that fixing it is easier than fighting it.

However, I doubt see a slight silver lining - and I’d like to know if I’m right or not - it appears that we are in a slightly better position outside of the workplace because trans inclusion is possible. And because it’s possible, the cheapest solution for an organisation is inclusion because essentially they don’t have to change anything.


Protect-the-dollz
1h ago

"Unfortunately, as far as I can tell as a laywoman, the impact on the workplace is severe. There really doesn’t seem to be any way to interpret it as anything other than awful."

Yes. That is my view.

"It may be possible to appeal - I personally don’t have the background to understand whether or not an appeal is realistic. I also have no idea how long the appeals process takes."

Appeals are only possible on points of law. Happily the entire JR is points of law. Sonitbis appealable. Whether the appeal will be successful? Impossible to say.

The judgement doesn't contain any fundamental technical errors. No cases quoted out of context or test of interpretation ignored so GLP will effectively be restating their case and hoping the upper courts agree.

Timewise- 6 months would be fast, 9-12 more usual.

"I also don’t know how quickly this is likely to be applied in the real world"

It should be immediate because the law is binding even without the guidance, so by confirming the guidance is an accurate reflection of the law, it has effectively been brought in by the back door.

In theory, one could go out and sue on Monday over not complying with the clarified law.

"With all of this nonsense, to me it essentially appears to come down to this:"

Your analysis hereafter is spot on imo.

Two very minor points.

There was an attempt last year to reopen Goodwin. I think at this point we can conclude it failed. The Secretafiat are required within a strict time limit to advise the CoM in their regular meetings of correspondence received unless it pertains to a matter with manifestly no hope of success.

We are well past the deadline and there has been no mention of the request in the CoE minutes. I think that avenue is closed to us.

2. The inclusion is only permitted where either there is no single sex spaces at all or where there is also a true single sex space as an alternative.
Ie to include trans women in a space with cis women, but not men, you also need a separate place for just cis women.

It is something, but it's much more restricted than people are realising.

OP posts:
DownhillTeaTray · 14/02/2026 16:39

After yesterday's 'excitement' that nothing had changed, they're beginning to realise that the GLP have shat on them.

OP posts:
AnSolas · 14/02/2026 16:40

DownhillTeaTray · 14/02/2026 16:20

What I find interesting is what P-t-d says about the implications for Kelly and Peggie. And that the law, thanks to the GLP, has now actually changed.

Gurrrrrr

The law cant be change by the Courts.

The law can only be read in a fixed way ( what did it say on the tin and on the safety leaflet ) by the Courts or struck off as not doing what it said on the tin.

StillSpartacus · 14/02/2026 16:42

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 14/02/2026 15:43

Surely if men = women, then losing = winning?
Same, innit?

I think that’s why they are proposing to appeal their “win”.

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 16:43

This means that our current hope is Dr McCloud’s case filed with the ECtHR.

What is McCloud’s case? Don’t you have to work your way up through national courts first?

MyAmpleSheep · 14/02/2026 16:48

FallenSloppyDead2 · 14/02/2026 15:50

That is why I am looking for a rebuttal to the lie.

From what KeepToiletsSafe says (I don't want to summon her, she deserves a break!), if you set up separate toilets for 'women and TIMs' and 'men and TIFs' you will probably have to use enclosed rooms, not cubicles. There are also issues around potential discrimination.

If you allow TIMs and TIFs into opposite sex, existing single-sex toilets, then they lose their single sex exemption and @Another2Cats ' understanding of paragraph 77 becomes valid - you must let everyone in.

Either way, the TIMs won't be happy.
IANAL and happy to be corrected

If you allow TIMs and TIFs into opposite sex, existing single-sex toilets, then they lose their single sex exemption and ' understanding of paragraph 77 becomes valid - you must let everyone in.

There's no prima facie "must". There is simply a loss of a legal defence against a claim from discrimination. The "must" only arises after a successful claim for discrimination.

But a claim for discrimination has to be made by an individual - and analyzed from their point of view. So who is the person being discriminated against? Is it a claim of direct discrimination from a man who is not allowed in to the women's (which the judge said is unlikely to succeed) or a claim of indirect discrimination against women in general from a woman on who is distressed by the presence of men (any men)?

Either claim will succeed on the individual facts of the case, which is why this judicial review (of principles) is wishy-washy. It can't be concrete.

If you like, instead of must, let's consider what "will" happen. Most reasonable service providers and employers will want to comply with what the EHRC tells them, as a best practice to survive a claim for discrimination.

If an organization is not scared to end up in court, because despite guidance it thinks the GLP's take will be accepted by the County Court judge (for a claim for discrimination by a service provider) or an Employment Judge in the ET for an at-work issue, then there's no "must" at all.

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 16:58

You must to avoid discrimination. The law does not assume everything is ok as long as no one brings a legal case.

StillSpartacus · 14/02/2026 17:01

I guess PTD can also see the writing on the wall in addition to being able to analyse the impact of the ruling accurately. By which I mean the direction of travel for corporate employers. I think the slow, step by step legal cases are accompanied by a wider employer weariness around gender identity and performative specialness.

Whatever permitted exceptions might be argued for, I would be astonished if anything beyond, male/female/accessible and gender neutral toilets happens at any scale. Companies might not care especially for women’s rights, but enough of them are sick of the costs of GI and the energy spent on it, that there is an element of leaning on an open door.

I predict that the JKR position will become the default.

MyAmpleSheep · 14/02/2026 17:02

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 16:58

You must to avoid discrimination. The law does not assume everything is ok as long as no one brings a legal case.

It rather does, in practice.

Hedgehogforshort · 14/02/2026 17:09

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 16:43

This means that our current hope is Dr McCloud’s case filed with the ECtHR.

What is McCloud’s case? Don’t you have to work your way up through national courts first?

McLeod lives in Ireland so has no standing in the UK Courts. So his case will fail on that alone. Nobody can go to, the ECHR unless they have exhausted all domestic Courts, and then only if deemed to have a case.

Most applications to the ECHR are rejected.

I do not see how McLeod case could get of the ground.

potpourree · 14/02/2026 17:20

Sorry, where in the judgement does the judge say that "abuse and violence are gossip"?

Or has she lied about that as well?

The dishonesty about this dismissal is jaw-dropping.

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2026 17:32

71Alex · 14/02/2026 10:26

But are men actually bothered about this? I haven’t seen any evidence.

Edited

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. DH has said he doesn't like shared toilets with urinals for exactly this reason. It potentially puts him at risk of accusations.

Rainingrain · 14/02/2026 17:43

MyAmpleSheep · 14/02/2026 17:02

It rather does, in practice.

Maybe but it is still ‘must’ in law even if it takes a court case to uphold it.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 14/02/2026 17:46

@MyAmpleSheep But a claim for discrimination has to be made by an individual - and analyzed from their point of view. So who is the person being discriminated against? Is it a claim of direct discrimination from a man who is not allowed in to the women's (which the judge said is unlikely to succeed) or a claim of indirect discrimination against women in general from a woman on who is distressed by the presence of men (any men)?

The 'must' seems to imply that the discrimination claim would come from a man, because it would be solved by letting everyone in. As you imply, the indirect discrimination claim from a woman is not solved by letting everyone in.

Legal feminist says:
... (the judge) does not think the way the point is put in the update is necessarily wrong, and thinks a court should be slow to interfere.
https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/2022312308920263113

I'm just looking for ways to push back on this on SM and IRL. I think I will just go with the toilet design argument!

Legal Feminist (@legalfeminist) on X

@EHRC Drawing together his conclusions on the argument that the guidance was legally erroneous, the judge returns to the suggestion that if trans-identifying men were allowed to use the ladies', men who did not assert a trans identity would be sufferin...

https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/2022312308920263113

DrudgeJedd · 14/02/2026 17:47

SecretSquirrelLoo · 13/02/2026 22:35

The Supreme Court ruling was crystal clear.

The interim EHRC guidance was clear.

Today’s judgement is thorough and clear.

Ok, the judge explores one or two hypotheticals which taken out of context are possibly a bit confusing. But the amount of dust the GLP is managing to kick into the air is astounding.

It's important to remember that Jolyon & the GLP received the judgment on Monday. They'd had 4 days to pick through it then pull out the areas they wanted to focus on and try to craft their own narrative ready for yesterday's announcement. They chose to offer their supporters obfuscation and deflection, it's all just grist to the mill (lol), I bet the next trache of begging letters were sat in drafts long before they started thinking about how their massive fuckup affected anyone else.
As long as the salary bill is covered and they get to piss about on Tiktok & insta being GOOD PEOPLE they'll keep going until they run out of cash or JM's daughters detransition.

ItsCoolForCats · 14/02/2026 17:52

Imnobody4 · 14/02/2026 17:14

Glad to see there is some pushback to this on Bluesky. I generally avoid it because it is such a tedious echo chamber.

If there anything that can be done about MPs misrepresenting the law in this way? Surely it is a breach of some kind of professional standards?

Talkinpeace · 14/02/2026 17:59

Apparently the EHRC have lodged a costs order of £300,000 against GLP

Imnobody4 · 14/02/2026 18:02

ItsCoolForCats · 14/02/2026 17:52

Glad to see there is some pushback to this on Bluesky. I generally avoid it because it is such a tedious echo chamber.

If there anything that can be done about MPs misrepresenting the law in this way? Surely it is a breach of some kind of professional standards?

I wondered if a complaint would fly. The poster has the HOC logo on, it's deliberate disinformation.

SerendipityJane · 14/02/2026 18:06

MyAmpleSheep · 14/02/2026 14:11

But "white" is very much a protected characteristic.

But when it comes to skin colour alone what exactly is "white" (or "black") anyway ?

@nicepotoftea

Do you not think there should be laws that define unlawful discrimination on the grounds of race or religion or belief?

Ideally we shouldn't need laws to stop people being cunts.

However because race religion and belief are all made up bollocks that will never be defined outside of self identification in UK law, then good luck with any logical consistency around them.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.