How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

"A deeply held belief or feeling that one's essence or identity is not aligned with one's physical body in regard to gender and sex, and that this feels so genuine that it often becomes worth risking relationships and families in order to live as one feels one must."

The issue starts when those people who then expect to be treated as if their 'essence or identity' that is not based on material reality, is material reality. The issue is that those people's purely subjective belief requires other people to act as if it those other people's material reality too though language and behaviour.

Many people have identities and beliefs that they feel is worth risking relationships and families for, however, which other beliefs are there where there is a societal expectation that people will act as if they also believe those identities are based on material reality.

Also, when this societal expectation has the foundation that if people don't act as if they believe in the group's identities / beliefs that this will cause immense mental health harm, and is described as genocide, how is this then not a mental health issue?

I was a firm gender critical who understood all the arguments.

Then my child said they felt they were trans. They agonised on this for 8 years - 8 years - before feeling they could not go on.

I thought I would lose them. I thought I'd get a simpering person dressed in anime clothing acting out a fetish, or a bloke in a bad wig and a dress wearing women's knickers. Turns out it was me that had been radicalised on here. It turned out not to be that scary at all. Instead they are still absolutely themself, only happier, more functional. They went from sitting in their darkened room unable to talk to anyone outside their family (which lasted 5 years) to going on family outings, going out cycling, joining a trans swimming group, going on the bus, being able to order food in a cafe, being able to go to the optician alone. They wear trousers, t shirts, occasionally a skirt. They don't bother with make up, that's not who they are. The other trans people I have met via my child are similar. They are just young people. They are all autistic. None dresses like an anime character.

So yes being trans did hugely impact my dc's mental health, in that the rumination on the dysphoria and the disgust with my dc's body severely impacted them for years and years before they felt able to reveal the reason for their deep self loathing. They were terrified that we would reject them. But eventually they couldn't go on as they were. And it has been transformative. They are no longer mentally ill.

I don't care if you don't get it really, but it's irritating to see a narrative perpetuated that doesn't reflect my reality or that of the families of other young trans people I know.

This is different from late transitioning males who are married, have children etc. They have a different set of obligations and promises that they cannot unilaterally change.

And if my DC turns out to have been wrong and reverts back to their original name? Wonderful. I'd be delighted. And if they remain the rest of their hopefully long and happy life using a female name and wearing a dress? That's ok too.

Personally I'm long past trying to accommodate/avoid conflict with trans-identifying people. People can't change sex and human pronouns are indicators of sex. Categorisation by sex is meaningful and sometimes important or useful.

The point is that compromise would be your trans acquaintances dressing how he wants and changing his given name to something he feels comfortable with, but accepting that he can't expect other people to deny reality. Compromise on your part is using his new first name without making a fuss about it and not making rude or snide comments about his appearance that you wouldn't make about someone who changed her or his style drastically for a different reason.

I think I’d do similar in your situation. However…
This thread is about a late stage male transition and - as you say it would be different for you - how might you deal with that?

Would you say you'll support any choices a 4 year old wants to make? A 16 year old who decided they wanted a tattoo? To take drugs? To chop off their arm?

If you are agreeing that your grandchild is the opposite sex and they are taking hormones - they are damaging their body. They may feel like this makes them happy in the short term, but why wouldn't you step in if you thought someone was making a mistake that will damage them irretrievably why would you say "I support you"?

It doesn't say it's late stage.

Any obligations this person has are to their family and close loved ones. Not to acquaintances in a gaming group.

I think OP has to decide if this particular situation is one she needs to make a stand on. This person isn't trying to access her private spaces or taking prizes or positions meant only for women.

I would use the preferred name, try to use the acquired pronouns with apologies for any slip ups in advance, and continue to consider the person a trans person. I consider my family member a trans person. They have their own story and that makes them different from a natal person of the sex they wish they were. That's our compromise. We both understand that their body is real, their sense of self is real, and their need to navigate life in the way that makes sense to them is real, but they are not exactly the same as a person born into a sex. That's worthy of respect.

This is different from late transitioning males who are married, have children etc. They have a different set of obligations and promises that they cannot unilaterally change.

Your child has a set of societal obligations that he cannot unilaterally change, such as using the gents' facilities.

My child, not grandchild, is an adult.

They were a young adult when they told us they were trans, in their early 20s.

This is an entirely different scenario from children. Adults have a right to autonomy and self determination in a way that children do not.

"They are no longer mentally ill."

Can I ask Diverze whether you feel that society should affirm your child's belief that is not based on material reality?

Is your child's mental health dependant on society affirming their belief that they are not the sex they materially are? Because if your child's mental health is dependant on being treated as if they are not the sex they materially are, isn't this a mental health issue?

You cannot force my child to use the gents.

My child uses unisex facilities where these are available and otherwise will not use the toilet.

This is less of a gotcha than you think. They go to trans swimming precisely because they are all too aware that their body is not aligned to their identity and they do not wish to make anyone uncomfortable.

Would you then say "make the choices you want to" about your young adult GC cutting off a body part/taking drugs? If they wanted to remove their testes/uterus? Do you genuinely think this is the right route for young adults? Because there's no data that shows they will be happier in the long term if they do that, but they certainly won't be fertile, and they are probably going to have physical health problems, whatever their birth sex.

Just switch to the language for females. Otherwise you're likely to split the group and create ructions. Is it really worth it?

He/she sounds quite serious about it as they're going down the hormone route.

What I said to my young person is that I would prefer that they do nothing irreversible until they have spoken to an expert; they agreed and are on a waiting list. Currently they are not wanting any surgery. If that changes we will discuss it like adults then. I will raise my concerns, urge caution, but ultimately it is up to them.

If my DC was taking recreational drugs I would strongly advise them to seek medical help or talk to a counsellor, but I would be powerless to actually stop them taking drugs.

Would it not be better for your child to have therapy to align their identity and feelings with their body?
I know you probably can't make them, but their friendship group is pushing them in the other direction, and both the discomfort with their body in the first place, and their feeling that their identity doesn't match, could be improved by therapy rather than deciding to limit their life to this small echo chamber and to, for example, sometimes not using the toilet when out. That's massively difficult and would limit travel, work, all kinds of things.

The hormone route should not be considered as a gauge to whether someone is 'serious' about their transition or not. There are some male people with transgender identities who do take 'witty skittles' exactly for the effect of growing breasts. This is part of fetishisation of female bodies and female body processes.

But taking cross-sex hormones is both dangerous and irreversible, and any experts they speak to will just tell them it's fine. Doesn't this make you stop and try to help them?

Your young person sounds like an excellent role model for those with trans identities and just the sort of person I’d be happy to enjoy mutual respect with. Unfortunately thats not how things have been with many losing jobs and friends for asking for the sorts of things your child has been happy to do.

My kid doesn't especially care about society. They care about their family and friends. My kid is autistic and has never gelled with or paid much attention to prevailing imperatives in society.

My young person isn't a fool; they know they don't "pass" as female and so they understand that strangers are likely to say things like "what would you like, Sir?". They don't particularly enjoy this but neither do they make a fuss or call it out. They appreciate being accepted by those they care about.

If I were to revert to using DC's birth name and pronouns deliberately (rather than slipping up, which we still do occasionally) this would be upsetting to them, because they would perceived it as us rejecting something they consider fundamental about themself. I imagine it would be depressing. But then it might be a bit of a headfuck if friends constantly used a name and pronouns I don't identify with; if they started calling me "Paul" and "he" against my will.

Actually this is not the case. One of DC's friends has been to the same clinic and had a very challenging time as because of selective mutism they were unable to communicate their dysphoria. The experts refused to prescribe hormones unless and until a way could be found to enable this young person to properly communicate their opinions and views, in person. A letter was not enough, and neither were parents' and professionals' reports.

I found this reassuring.

The friendship group has arisen out of adopting a trans identity rather than the other way around. Their two pre-existing friends are not trans.

I don't know how I feel about therapy that aligns their body and mind. If this was a route they wished to go down that would be one thing. If they didn't want to go down this route it would in itself be coercive and therefore unlikely to be successful.

So, if family and friends did not use the language and act as if the identity was based on material reality, do you think that their mental health would decline again?

Do you see the discordance in saying that this is not a mental illness when if others did not affirm this belief, then your child would again have poor mental health?

I understand that you believe that this is a genuine identity. I also understand that this is a very hard decision that you have had to make. However, the question remains around why it is not a mental health issue for those who would have poor mental health if they were not affirmed by others or who have the belief about themselves when it is not objectively true.

And to add to that, beliefs about whether or not we can be mentally ill are very powerful - if you believe that you are an anxious person, you will become an anxious person. If you believe that something will make you anxious, it will make you anxious.
So believing that being called by the wrong name or pronouns will make you unhappy is a self-fulfilling property.
It is not just the argument that the rest of us have the right to say what we see in front of us that makes me think "affirming" is bad. It is the effect on the young person that "this will be SO DANGEROUS for me" that is just damaging to their mental health. They need to be confronted with reality and work out it's not going to harm them.

I'm the parent of two ND children, and yes I do make DD get her own bike out even though there are spiders in the shed and DS go to groups when he feels anxious around groups of people. DS in particular is an unrecognisable child since we started doing this.

I understand how hard the decision is to continue to insist that your child does something such as continuing with a group activity that they enjoy but have anxiety about or to do a day to day activity such as getting a bike out when their might be spiders.

I don't know if I believe this is a genuine identity.

I believe that my DC believes it is.

I can see how much growth and development we have seen since they told us what was bothering them and were treated compassionately rather than, as they feared, being rejected.

I do not see fetish. I do not see a desire to ride roughshod over women's spaces. I see a person who was struggling with their identity for years who now believes they know who they are and who believes they are authentically themselves for the first time since the dysphoria set in around age 15. They spent years, they say, trying to suppress these feelings, disgusted at themself, their body. It seems much more identity focused than anything else.

Get back to us when they are 35 about where they are in life.

This isn't just about a short term identity issue.

This is also about long term decisions impacting long term life.

These aren't great post transition. The initial honeymoon period is known about and documented.

The essential issue is the point it being effectively a way of 'running away from yourself' - it's a form of avoidant behaviour.

This can be driven by all types of things but avoidant behaviour is always mental health related because it's a form of anxiety. If you are trying to avoid being called the sex you are that's avoidant behaviour.

Avoidant behaviour can be upheld for a finite amount of time before a crisis which relies on you acknowledging the thing you are trying to avoid.

If it was a fear of spiders, you might get away with it your whole life.

If it's about being in denial about your sex, the side effects and implications of taking hormones / having surgery, relationship status, having or not having children and your medical issues more generally EVENTUALLY you are going to hit a road block.

The trouble with extreme avoidant behaviour is how it manifests. This can be really traumatic and involve lashing out at people around you, because YOU are that fucking scared of the world around you and it's out of proportion to any threat posed. You are in fight or flight mode.

Weirdly this idea of transphobia being everywhere and being about hate from pronouns is about this avoidant behaviour and the fear ISN'T coming from someone who goes "this is a lot of bullshit" and really otherwise couldn't care less what you are wearing or who you are but are rather pissed off at your lashing out and unreasonable demands. The fear is actually about the fear of having to face up to reality and the extent to which the avoidant behaviour has been enabled and encouraged.

I think in ten to fifteen years times this is likely to be one of the incoming narratives about the impact of avoidant behaviour and how it isn't properly recognised as the anxiety (mental health) related issues it should be.

We've got too caught up in 'being kind' as the only possible solution, when actually you can never run away from yourself and material reality. You can only come to terms with that reality.

This tends to be a natural process throughout your twenties too where you settle into your adult self. Removing this idea that you go from the awkward teen / very young adult to an older adult who no longer seeks the same level of peer inclusion and 'fitting in' to realising that actually all this fitting in business is just very immature/ a lack of confidence and thinking the world centres on you.

The second you move from the world being more than just you and you not being a planetary body which gravity revolves around, it all changes.

Transpeople don't seem to go through this process and ultimately end up becoming croppers for it, because they can't adjust to other people waking up to the fact they don't have to pander to this - because it doesn't do them any good and they realise it's really not actually doing anything to help the transperson because it merely can only delay that inevitable crash with reality and make them more unprepared for it.

It's like building a tower on sand - the higher the tower is built the further the fall for the person at the top of the tower who is still building it.

Without a good foundation on hard, solid ground your house will fall down. The subsidence will get you in the end regardless of how good the skill in masonry and woodwork the workmen have because they can't change the foundations on which that carefully crafted identity was built on.

I would like to say different. But nothing in history says anything different. The truth always shines through in the end.

You can not escape yourself. You can bully others but YOU always know deep down. This is the paradox of insecurity that can never be satisfied in the long run. The demands get bigger as someone realises that that need and the desire to avoid the true gets bigger and bigger.

When all your peers are settling down, have long term partners and start having kids and you find yourself in a position where your sex matters because having a child starts to rise up the priority list and your dating pool has shrunk to a very small pot and those people who have settled down no longer have the time for the bullshit and the pandering because it's so draining and they are busy playing house... Right about the time your physical health really starts deteriorating due to the drugs. That's when it starts to get real and very lonely...

Good luck.