Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

1. I brought up abortion to contradict the claim that people here on "on the side of biological facts", when they are in fact, not. Not when it suits them. You can't claim to support biological facts if you think people who speak factually about abortion are being cruel.
2. I brought up mental health because gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia relate to mental health. Do they not? Specifically, I said it's vindictive to take other people's mental health struggles and make them about yourself somehow. Guilt tripping people for their confusion is a lousy thing to do.
3. Sex segregation of public toilets didn't happen because of feminist activism. I never said feminist campaigners at all have nothing to do with public restrooms existing at all. But it was very much a patriarchy approved thing, and not due to sexual assaults happening all the them.

       Anything else?

I disagree. Especially if they have made an effort to pass. You don't seem to care about intentions. I do.

No idea. None at all.

We care about women. Women choose to use a women's space because they want a male.free space.

You're making the argument that people are criminals purely based on breaking the law. I'm just seeing if you actually hold that view. I suspect you're not. Which is why you never answered.

At this point you are barely coherent, pal.

Consent is relevant and it is not manipulative. Because it is discussing the safeguarding premise that has been the foundation for sex segregated provisions from the start.

I don't agree that female people should be using the male single sex spaces. However, the difference is 'consent' from the female person. She consents to taking the risk of entering a male single sex space. Of course, she has ignored the consent of the male people who are using it which is another issue. The difference is recognising the power differential between the sexes. That female person entering that male single sex provision is unlikely to be able to physically harm the male people also using that provision, hence she takes on that risk consensually.

So amount of effort that the man makes matters to you?

No matter how much effort you make, you are not welcome there.

You come across as someone who really doesn't like to be told no.

It's a women's space, so I care about the people it's for: women. What women want, what women need. What men intend is irrelevant; they just don't belong in a women's space, period.

You would think these are women based on seeing them in the toilets for 10 seconds?

Short men don't exist apparently.

I see... we are up to the 'what about the female people with transgender identities' progressions...

This really has been like a script.

You feel that strongly. Many don't. The problem is that you don't have much to back it up, it's just "It has to be this way, because it has to be!". Many people disagree. Get over it.

Sky is just repeating themselves over numerous threads

As I said about an eerily similar poster yesterday, for someone who mentions toilets a lot, they know fuck all about them

Doesn't actually answer the question. You can't tell apart a passable trans man or a man at a brie glance, sometimes even a long one. So, a man could easily walk in, claim he's a trans man, and you wouldn't know any better.

@Skywinn

I brought up mental health because gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia relate to mental health. Do they not?

Sure they do - but thanks to TRAs, they don't relate to being trans anymore. It's considered highly transphobic to argue that you have to have gender dysphoria to be trans. So you can't assume that all trans people out there have gender dysphoria, so I don't see what's the relevance of even bringing up gender dysphoria, let alone body dysmorphia?

Indeed. One long tedious gish gallop.

I'm addressing it to people who are say this about the trans people who do have dysphoria. Not just 'TRA'S'. Again, you don't know what whether or not someone has GD unless they openly say they don't

You obviously don't know what that term means. Contradicting you and holding you to your word is not gish galloping.

Your problem is that you have to "get over it", because the law prevents you from doing what you want. Too bad. Get over it indeed.

To be fair to this poster, we dont know where in the US he is. Quite why he's so exercised about UK law is anyone's guess.

Your accusation is incorrect :) Mnay women seem to disagree, they have no issue with men and women in the same toilets. But you seem to disregard women who disagree with you and claim you speak for an roughly half the human population. Arrogant identity politics.

My.

I don't know what search criteria you used but here's a hint. The search for 'the beginnings of single sex toilet provision UK' will give you a rather more broad overview, including the urinary leash, department stores, the Suffragettes, women fighting against social stigma and the war efforts.

But I know, I know....evidence (shudders)

Just a reminder of how female toilet spaces are used and why single mixed sex cubicles should not be accepted as the only toilets available in areas outside of very small businesses.

Toilets are not just used behind a closed cubicle door. There are quite a few aspects of female toilet usage that happen in the public space, or even now still occur with a toilet door jammed open.

Don’t forget there is the safety aspect where people may rely on the gaps under doors and walls for their safety. We already had someone mention helping a woman who was on the floor that they could see because of the gap. We have had others on other threads point out that they feel safer with gaps after being attacked in mixed sex toilets that are fully enclosed and no one could see them.

From my personal experience here is a list.

I have had to use the toilet while having a pram / pushchair jammed into the door with groceries.

I have had to have my mum use the public toilet because the disable toilet was not available and had her wheelchair jammed in the door because I couldn't leave her sit to move it and shut the door.

I have had breastmilk leaks / children's vomit / food spilled on my clothes and needed to have an unbuttoned top to dry the top under the hand drier.

I have come across other women quite regularly washing out their tops or their skirts etc and drying them enough to put back on .

I have friends who have miscarried in toilets and needed assistance and for that to be female people to make it more comfortable.

Even with mixed sex cubicles with basins, they don’t usually have the space needed for prams. And if a woman is trying to dry themselves using a drier in the cubicle, it restricts traffic flow. Even if it is just internal pressure that she feels, there will be pressure on her to leave the cubicle quickly. In an open space she will less inclined to feel that pressure.

If you as a female person have not experienced these issues, that doesn't mean it is not happening. I am glad that you have never needed to do this things, it is uncomfortable and can be quite humiliating. But at least, in a female only toilet, it is a little better.

I think when people think of toilet usage, maybe they have never had to use the toilets in any other way other than behind a closed door. That is a privilege in that respect.

But the needs are still there and they are real for many female people to be able to engage in public life.

To allow any male person toileting spaces (over the age of about 8 years old) removes some of the usability of this space for female people. There is a reason for female single sex toilets and the communal female single sex space in those provisions.

Take off the filters, put some clothes on them, and have them walk around, and yeah, I'm sure quite a few people would clock them. Also: if they had to go in the women's, they would most likely make all necessary efforts to look as unthreatening as possible - because they know women can get scared at seeing a man in there, and they don't want to trigger that fear.

There really as been a huge amount of effort expended to dismiss the need for female single sex provisions. All the old tropes have been used.