Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

Wait, Bluestocking is a chain of pubs?

I thought ours was the only one. I feel so mislead 😕

Honestly, I'm still laughing at your condescending reply...to a bisexual transman (whose reply was pretty gracious btw).

Your flouncing is noted. Bet it's on a Penny Farthing or something 'unconventional'.

But that's not autogynephilia.

These men get off on doing things like joining bookclubs for women, going to the WI, doing female coded things like knitting, shoving tampons up their bum.

They will impoverish their entire families, utilise their wives and daughters, and become almost insane with the fetish.

It's got nothing to do with a woman's own sense of her sexuality.

Apologies for the suggestion RE looking up autoandrophilia. I didn't know your history with it.

I think that you have received a lot of pushback because weakening the definition of AGP by suggesting that 'women have it too' is a known tactic for manipulating women to lower their boundaries regarding men with AGP. It's the common redefine words to redefine reality tactic that we have seen so many times. The end result is always the same - men get to use female single sex spaces, and women lose out.

We know you (general 'you') have to stand firm with definitions and not dilute them. Of course, TRSOH can redefine women as non-men, cervix-havers or whatever because women lose out (and men aren't being called non-women or prostate-havers).

The awful 'cis' is considered a slur by many on here. It assumes that it is normal to believe in and have a gender identity. It redefines 'woman' to include some men. Once again - women lose out.

That theme is repeated again and again and once you see it, it all becomes clear. Many people on here have seen it. They have different reasons for the realisation and took different paths to it.

Despite your assertion that we all agree, this is not the case. We get regular posts from people who disagree, including some regular posters.

Please please please read some trans widows' stories.

If these men were merely trying to feel like a source of sexiness to their partners (or indeed to strangers!) in a world where only women are allowed a visual lamguage of sexiness, if they were simply playing out a male version of women who are aroused by triggering arousal in others, they would give a shit about their partners actually finding their presentation and the situation sexy.

They don't. They coerce their partners to be live action characters in their AGP fantasy. The actual partner's enjoyment and arousal isn't factoring in to the AGP man's arousal, it's all located in the fantasy role the partner is performing.

Personally I couldn't care less what sexual thoughts other people may be having. Provided they stay in the privacy of their own heads, or are shared only with consenting adults, and don't translate to behaviour that impacts non consenting people, its nothing to do with me.
So until women become so sexually aroused by themselves in fishnets they start masturbating in cafes, toilets and changing rooms causing distress and trauma to other adults and children, I'm not sure what purpose seeking 'common ground' between women's behaviour and AGP serves.
Well actually, I do. But it's not a purpose I have any interest in serving.

a lot of heterosexual people's attraction seems to be contingent on conformity to gender norms, as much or more than it is to good-looking bodies of the opposite sex. We "perform" gender in large part to attract others, who are conditioned to respond to it.

As an old woman who has seen some shit and even learned a bit from it, it's not that linear.

The genderised dressing signals the sex, yes. And when you first see someone of the opposite sex wearing something you have gendered expectations of, whether it's a trans/gnc¹ person of your own culture or a person from a culture where that thing has a different gendered code, you initially read some element of the opposite sex.

However, over time, as you become accustomed to seeing it on the opposite sex as well, your original gendered expectations weaken and you just read the sex of the person.

So while I agree that in the moment, there's an element of gender presentation in sexual attraction, the underlying driver is the sex not the gender.

(Oh and BTW plenty of straight women find feminine coded men attractive so it's definitely not because you are "bisexual and the very unconventional"!)

¹ GNC standing for both Gender Non Conforming and Gender Not Caring 😁

Penny Farthing is a great drag name

Though given the misogyny of many drag names, Penny Farting is more likely

I'm bisexual and I definitely do not fancy myself.

As we're geographically dispersed but can all meet in the local Bluestocking, I conclude it's like Discworld L-Space. The many Bluestockings are all ultimately a single Bluestocking, connected by a gerbil-based dimensional distortion field.

However, over time, as you become accustomed to seeing it on the opposite sex as well, your original gendered expectations weaken and you just read the sex of the person.

So while I agree that in the moment, there's an element of gender presentation in sexual attraction, the underlying driver is the sex not the gender.

Firm agree!

Having grown up during the 70s Glam and the 80s New Romantic era, as well as being a huge Metal and Grunge fan, I can confirm that I had/have no problem fancying men who had waist-length hair, or who wore more makeup and frilly blouses than I ever have - they weren't pretending to be sexualised stereotypes of women, they were expanding the clothing and hairstyle choices for men.

I also never confused skinhead or punk women for men despite their lack of feminine clothing and behaviour 🤷‍♀️ And I thought they looked fantastic too.

You speak the truth. The idea that women & men for that matter don't get sexually aroused by their own bodies is preposterous.

The perversion lies a little closer to the wowsers who don't & misguidedly determine that because they don't others who do are 'sick'.

Most women are too critical of and self-conscious about their own cellulite, stretch marks, and wobbly bits to find themselves sexually attractive.

We aren't talking about getting aroused by your own body. We are talking about being aroused by and masturbating to the specific fantasy of being the opposite sex.

The female equivalent is probably in the masturbatory fantasies of some of the women who read yaoi.

True, but the streets are full of women who are very far from supermodel status let alone average & yet exude sexual confidence.

The funny thing is I have a lot more of it now in my fifties that when I was close to 'perfection' in my twenties. Catholic upbringings & the fashion industry have a lot to answer for.

I've only just realised that Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs is probably supposed to be an AGP. He tries to get a medical sex change but it's refused because he's judged to be not truly transsexual but someone with a different motivation behind his desire to be made into a woman.

Which gives a lot more significance than I realised to the mirror scene and the line "Would you fuck me? I'd fuck me. I'd fuck me so hard"

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we are supposed to conclude AGP made him into psychopathic killer. He was a psychopath who would have killed for anything he wanted if he thought killing was the way to get it. AGP just determined what that thing was (and allowed Thomas Harris to write some torture and mutilation of a few women for his readers)

Like a woman who is aroused & masturbates by her small/fake breasts to the "specific fantasy" of real one's?

You don't seem to realise 'fantasy' regularly features in arousal.

Worth adding here that this has long been the case and even us older ladies have experienced this for ourselves or among our peers. It's not new. And it's not and never was anything like AGP. How exactly does a woman experience a male fetish? Oh right, she can't.

I will admit that yes, when I am getting dressed and put on certain lingerie, I can appreciate I look sexy and feel sexy too to the degree I might even get a little turned on. I also know I have fantastic breasts. However, I do not sit at home all day playing with my breasts, nor trying on lingerie. And at no point in any of all this, I do not think about how much I want to have sex with myself. This is a key part of APG. As others on this thread have already said, a man who is APG is a man who gets sexually aroused at the thought/sight of himself, a man, dressed as a woman.

Interestingly, APG has always been something of an elephant in the room which no really discussed. I think for a long time, there wasn't even a name for it. But, many were aware of it. Interestingly, it even crops up in the Oscar winning film Silence of the Lambs. In one scene, the male serial killer is dressed as a woman. He literally says "Would you fuck me? I'd fuck me... I'd fuck me hard... I'd fuck me so hard..." to his own reflection, as he is putting on make-up.

So no, APG is not something a woman would or can do, because we are biological woman and not biological men.

^^ Posted before I read @FlirtsWithRhinos post!

I do not think about how much I want to have sex with myself

It's more wishing that your wife/husband/Brad Pitt was there, or thinking about what you'll get up to with that person later on, amirite?

Ugh not Brad Pitt. He always looks as if he needs a good wash

But in general, I agree with you

@selffellatingouroborosofhate Am single, so I mostly think 'what a waste!'

To be honest, have been rather unwell and no longer have breasts. I still think I look great. (Am endlessly surprised that I feel even more feminine and way sexier without breasts). I clearly have body-confidence that is second to none. Maybe, I have more in common with some of the troons after all! 😂

Hahahahahahahahaha!

No.

I can see why the creepy bastard who asked this pitiful question didn't put a poll in 😂😅