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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

1000 replies

PassportPanicFuuuck · 03/01/2026 20:37

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

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ThatBlackCat · 08/01/2026 14:57

I don't hate trans people. I don't want them hurt. I don't want anyone to be hurt. Trans people should have equal rights in the workplace, in law, in health. Trans people should have the same human rights everyone has. I just feel that the female sex's sex-based rights were hard won and we shouldn't give them up because a male wants to appropriate women's oppression and enter our sacred spaces.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2026 14:58

nicepotoftea · 08/01/2026 14:55

I think the thought process didn't go any further than

'Well the poor chaps must really mean it if they want to do that to themselves, how appalling!'

That's word for word what my parents say. They aren't alone. I have other well meaning friends say similar.

But losing sight of everyone else as part of that isn't ok.

Taztoy · 08/01/2026 15:00

I don’t hate trans people.

I am sorry for their distress and upset but that doesn’t mean they can come into women’s single sex spaces.

Beowulfa · 08/01/2026 15:04

JellySaurus · 08/01/2026 14:50

Ballet muddled their metaphor. It's You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Definitely leave the bees be. Flies spread diseases, bees spread pollen.

Flies and wasps do also act as pollinators. Hoverfly larvae eat aphids as a bonus.

Trans issues can be resolved by some grown ups being in charge. Grown ups explain things clearly and are able to say No. If you've forgotten what adult reasoning looks like, read the FWS Supreme Court judgement.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 08/01/2026 16:31

Not being twelve any more, I don't 'hate' anyone. I do dislike grotty behaviours which include trampling on other people's rights and deriding them/cry bullying when they set boundaries. 'you have to care about my thing but I don't care about your thing' as the Times article put it this week doesn't do much in terms of winning friends and influencing people; it's just trying special pleading for enablement of rotten behaviour.

Feeling pity for someone is one thing. Enabling them by oppressing and harming others is another. No man 'needs' access to a non consenting woman in a state of undress and no child 'needs' a healthy body sterilised or mutilated. Confusing wants and needs, demonstrating violent and sexually abusive ideation the moment of being crossed along with anti social behaviours - and having major issues with empathy and reciprocation - are signs of pathological disorders.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 09/01/2026 02:11

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:12

I generally avoid this forum because I'm really torn on the whole issue. I have trans friends in real life, one of which I've been friends with since before their transition, and they are lovely genuine people who mean no harm, just get on with their lives, and don't fit any of the 'weird kink' stereotypes I see here.

However, I have seen and met other people who identify as trans for bad, disingenuous reasons, for attention, when they clearly have serious mental health issues, as a power thing etc. So it's hard for all of these people to be lumped in together.

I also think it's a difficult issue because there's the issue of men (cis men) pretending to be trans women to gain access to women's spaces etc. That's not a problem with genuine trans people, that's a problem with men, but it's part of the 'trans' debate.

It's just such a muddy issue with so many different things going on, I agree with some oponions here and not others, and it's hard to have open discussions without being seen as anti trans so the conversation isn't really going to be able to progress. So yes I agree in that I don't see how it can be resolved! The loudest voices are extremes on each end, and there's not a lot of space for reasoned debate somewhere in the middle

There are no extremes on the GC side. All women want is for women only spaces to return to being for women only - as they were for over a century with no issues. And for trans activists of all stripes to stop telling confused children they can change sex. Because no one can do that.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 09/01/2026 02:18

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:18

That's not all it comes down to though. Say we had a law that said you must only use spaces the match your biological sex. Would that really be enough? I've seen people say they don't want trans people teaching children, for example, a classroom isn't a single sex space. (Unless a boys/girls) school. It's an ideological issue that's bigger than just what toilets etc people use, that's why it's such a tricky subject

We DO have that law. It's just that some people are not following it.

As for trans teachers. What people generally object to is kids being gaslit that these people are objectively the opposite sex to what they obviously are and being coerced into pretending that this is the truth.

If a trans teacher was honest about who they are and wasn't indoctrinatig kids into gender ideology then ok. But this isn't what happens.

StabbyCat · 09/01/2026 09:49

MistyGreenAndBlue · 09/01/2026 02:11

There are no extremes on the GC side. All women want is for women only spaces to return to being for women only - as they were for over a century with no issues. And for trans activists of all stripes to stop telling confused children they can change sex. Because no one can do that.

This. It’s really very simple. I wonder if TRAs and trans sympathisers can answer me these questions:

Should my son be allowed in women’s spaces? He’s very gentle and has no interest in women sexually as he’s gay. He just feels more comfortable in the ladies.

What has happened to the suicide statistics of trans children? We are told that affirming the gender of trans children literally saves lives. So presumably the statistics show a massive reduction in suicide rates from, say, 20 years ago? Trans children must have been dropping like flies back then, no?

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:17

StabbyCat · 09/01/2026 09:49

This. It’s really very simple. I wonder if TRAs and trans sympathisers can answer me these questions:

Should my son be allowed in women’s spaces? He’s very gentle and has no interest in women sexually as he’s gay. He just feels more comfortable in the ladies.

What has happened to the suicide statistics of trans children? We are told that affirming the gender of trans children literally saves lives. So presumably the statistics show a massive reduction in suicide rates from, say, 20 years ago? Trans children must have been dropping like flies back then, no?

The problem I can see with the suicide of trans children, is that 20 years ago, a child committing suicide would not have said that it was because they were trans, so they would have been counted in the general suicide statistics, not specifically the trans category.

That said, I don't believe in the existence of so many trans kids, nor that so many of them would commit suicide if they were made to wait to transition.

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2026 10:19

What are the figures on post transition suicide?

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2026 10:19

(hint they aren't great).

TempestTost · 09/01/2026 10:23

MistyGreenAndBlue · 09/01/2026 02:18

We DO have that law. It's just that some people are not following it.

As for trans teachers. What people generally object to is kids being gaslit that these people are objectively the opposite sex to what they obviously are and being coerced into pretending that this is the truth.

If a trans teacher was honest about who they are and wasn't indoctrinatig kids into gender ideology then ok. But this isn't what happens.

I'm not sure this is true, I think it is fair to say there are questions beyond single sex spaces that many people have. There's also a lot of variation in people's views even among "gc" people.

So some might feel as you describe about teachers. Others might feel that it's simply wrong for kids to be asked to call a teacher by the wrong pronouns for their biology. That telling kids that people may not be there biological sex is potentially a safeguarding issue.

Some think it's fine and great to broaden clothing so male people can just wear dresses or women's clothes. Others think that this is often sexually motivated, at least in men and always will be and so should not be encouraged, and that it is within the rights of an employer to disallow it.

Some people think "being trans" is a reasonable outcome for those who have a truly trans essence or whee that's the medical diagnosis, others think that it is masking other issues that need to be resolved, and which may be of interest to people like employers.

So while you'd find a lot of agreement around stuff like spots and same sex spaces, there are other questions where there is a lot more disagreement.

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:28

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2026 10:19

What are the figures on post transition suicide?

I don't have them at hand, but I do know that even 15 years ago, it was well-known that some people put too much hope for a magically better life in their transition and cracked once it was done because, duh, no, things aren't suddenly all rosy. And those were adults. I can only imagine that the phenomenon got even worse once they started targeting vulnerable kids. It's monstrous, really.

Helleofabore · 09/01/2026 10:38

Does anyone remember the man in Canada who chose medically assisted dying after realising he could never be female and that all the surgery and hormones left him with such poor physical and mental health and he realised it was never going to make him into a woman? I think there was a report of a female who did this in either Belgium or the Nederlands too. I wonder how many of these cases will be included in those statistics and never analysed.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/01/2026 10:45

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:28

I don't have them at hand, but I do know that even 15 years ago, it was well-known that some people put too much hope for a magically better life in their transition and cracked once it was done because, duh, no, things aren't suddenly all rosy. And those were adults. I can only imagine that the phenomenon got even worse once they started targeting vulnerable kids. It's monstrous, really.

In terms of child suicide - in this country suspected child suicides are subject to a multi disciplinary Child Death Review which looks to identify causes along with preventive measures. Which is why when the usual ghouls tried to weaponise this in their attempts to stop the ban on puberty blockers, Prof Louis Appleby was able to respond with certainty that there wasn't the increase claimed:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9x8j5p0992o

young woman in a forest

Review says puberty blocker curb has not led to suicide rise

An independent review said the language used around the issue on social media was dangerous.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9x8j5p0992o

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:47

It was Belgium, and it was horrifying because it was entirely preventable. The whole reason she wanted to transition was because her parents had always wanted her to be a boy. She needed a psychotherapy, not a transition !

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:50

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/01/2026 10:45

In terms of child suicide - in this country suspected child suicides are subject to a multi disciplinary Child Death Review which looks to identify causes along with preventive measures. Which is why when the usual ghouls tried to weaponise this in their attempts to stop the ban on puberty blockers, Prof Louis Appleby was able to respond with certainty that there wasn't the increase claimed:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9x8j5p0992o

No surprise there, though it's definitely good to have it confirmed!

CautiousLurker2 · 09/01/2026 10:53

Am returning this morning as I see certain posters have removed themselves.

The myth of trans suicide is hugely significant. We spent nearly 5 years under home siege [yes, I know this sounds dramatic, but bear with me] because we were told not affirming our child would mean she would likely kill herself. We were told the likelihood of her living to 21 was remote. We were told that she had expressly told CAMHS/her youth social worker that she was planning to be dead by her 18th birthday. I didn’t sleep more than a few snatched hours in the weeks before that date.

For more than five years, we lived with all medication locked away (a fucking nightmare when you have two other AuDHD household members whose autistic anxiety manifests in severe, exorcist-level vomitous migraines and they cannot access basic drugs such as paracetamol, let alone the more potent stuff they are prescribed - because you needed to find the person with the key and know where the lock box was currently secreted). We had every knife, scissors, skewer or vaguely sharp object locked away, making cooking and food prep a flipping nightmare (and proved pointless as she just bought blunt knives from the school canteen home, and even plastic disposable ones from Boots).

As she was a night roamer, I have now slept separately from my husband for years with the door wide open and didn’t actually sleep until 3-4am at the earliest [getting up at 7 for the school run] for the entire period because I couldn’t ‘rest’ until I knew she was finally in her bed and sleeping. My husband and I used to beg each other to go and wake her up and banned our son from going up first because, for nearly five years, we didn’t know if she would be alive when we opened the door. She was very resourceful with paperclips, staples, etc. Even the side of a credit card or ID card can do some damage, if you’re interested.

And yes, she self harmed but it has since been very clear that although she was mentally unwell she NEVER had any intention of committing suicide. A) she was told by her online cronies that if she SAID she was, if she told college she had taken an overdose of paracetamol (ie a total of 4 on the 6 occasions we ended up in A&E after a crisis call from pastoral care), then apparently she would be moved up the priority list at the Tavistock. This of course did not happen. She was never even triaged at the Tavistock after 5 years on the wait list and aging out of the adolescent wait list. B) in every actual psychiatric interview, when the discussion over sectioning her and admission to hospital came up, she buckled and admitted she would never do it to her brother. Or us.

The impact on us a family has been catastrophic. My DH and I contemplated separate households, divorce, him giving up his job/downsizing and moving in with his family. I also actually contemplated suicide - my DH struggled with day to day life and had similar dark periods. We both needed counselling and medicalising for depression and anxiety. Our DS’s needs - his autism, his ADHD, his struggles - were missed due to the hyperfocus on DD and his desire not to add to our burden. We were fucking terrified that our inability to reconcile her belief that she was born in the wrong body with what we knew as fact - myself as a teacher, psychology graduate, childcare expert; my DH as a scientist and pragmatist - that ‘trans’ does not exist on a biological level and is psychologically/socially routed… could lead to her dying. And, we were told, it would be our fault. Everyone told us this, hence being reported to Soc Servs twice - we will never know specifically by whom.

All because Mermaids, Stonewall etc all mass marketed the idea that an unaffirmed trans teen will very very likely kill themselves.

Over the years I have dealt with, met known, several dozen such trans teens and they are all alive today - even the only one who actually attempted suicide at 15, long before trans identifying, who is bi polar with EuPD and was institutionalised in a paediatric psychiatric hospital for 18m [so forgive me if I feel her issues are likely nothing to do with her any trans identity].

To say I am fucking angry that this myth has been peddled is probably an understatement. It has given institutions who are supposed to support YP and their families a rod to beat them with, a way to manipulate and terrorise them. Schools, CAMHS, social services - the lot of them are directly responsible for the impact their mismanagement of my child’s care has had on our family. I will never forgive them for uncritically swallowing the bullshit that Mermaids and Stonewall promoted.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/01/2026 11:00

Dear gods @CautiousLurker2, that is beyond horrific. I think all of us on these threads know that this sort of things happens, but it is harrowing to hear it spelled out. I am so, so sorry for what you and your family have gone through.

Vipers, if you ever needed a reminder of why we hold the line, this is a big one.

Helleofabore · 09/01/2026 11:00

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 10:47

It was Belgium, and it was horrifying because it was entirely preventable. The whole reason she wanted to transition was because her parents had always wanted her to be a boy. She needed a psychotherapy, not a transition !

I remember her story. It was a horrific example of neglect.

The man in Canada was an abused child/young person too who then transitioned and realised that what he needed was trauma therapy first.

The seriousness is only just being uncovered and I think so many of these people's stories are being ignored as they are inconvenient.

Helleofabore · 09/01/2026 11:01

CautiousLurker2 · 09/01/2026 10:53

Am returning this morning as I see certain posters have removed themselves.

The myth of trans suicide is hugely significant. We spent nearly 5 years under home siege [yes, I know this sounds dramatic, but bear with me] because we were told not affirming our child would mean she would likely kill herself. We were told the likelihood of her living to 21 was remote. We were told that she had expressly told CAMHS/her youth social worker that she was planning to be dead by her 18th birthday. I didn’t sleep more than a few snatched hours in the weeks before that date.

For more than five years, we lived with all medication locked away (a fucking nightmare when you have two other AuDHD household members whose autistic anxiety manifests in severe, exorcist-level vomitous migraines and they cannot access basic drugs such as paracetamol, let alone the more potent stuff they are prescribed - because you needed to find the person with the key and know where the lock box was currently secreted). We had every knife, scissors, skewer or vaguely sharp object locked away, making cooking and food prep a flipping nightmare (and proved pointless as she just bought blunt knives from the school canteen home, and even plastic disposable ones from Boots).

As she was a night roamer, I have now slept separately from my husband for years with the door wide open and didn’t actually sleep until 3-4am at the earliest [getting up at 7 for the school run] for the entire period because I couldn’t ‘rest’ until I knew she was finally in her bed and sleeping. My husband and I used to beg each other to go and wake her up and banned our son from going up first because, for nearly five years, we didn’t know if she would be alive when we opened the door. She was very resourceful with paperclips, staples, etc. Even the side of a credit card or ID card can do some damage, if you’re interested.

And yes, she self harmed but it has since been very clear that although she was mentally unwell she NEVER had any intention of committing suicide. A) she was told by her online cronies that if she SAID she was, if she told college she had taken an overdose of paracetamol (ie a total of 4 on the 6 occasions we ended up in A&E after a crisis call from pastoral care), then apparently she would be moved up the priority list at the Tavistock. This of course did not happen. She was never even triaged at the Tavistock after 5 years on the wait list and aging out of the adolescent wait list. B) in every actual psychiatric interview, when the discussion over sectioning her and admission to hospital came up, she buckled and admitted she would never do it to her brother. Or us.

The impact on us a family has been catastrophic. My DH and I contemplated separate households, divorce, him giving up his job/downsizing and moving in with his family. I also actually contemplated suicide - my DH struggled with day to day life and had similar dark periods. We both needed counselling and medicalising for depression and anxiety. Our DS’s needs - his autism, his ADHD, his struggles - were missed due to the hyperfocus on DD and his desire not to add to our burden. We were fucking terrified that our inability to reconcile her belief that she was born in the wrong body with what we knew as fact - myself as a teacher, psychology graduate, childcare expert; my DH as a scientist and pragmatist - that ‘trans’ does not exist on a biological level and is psychologically/socially routed… could lead to her dying. And, we were told, it would be our fault. Everyone told us this, hence being reported to Soc Servs twice - we will never know specifically by whom.

All because Mermaids, Stonewall etc all mass marketed the idea that an unaffirmed trans teen will very very likely kill themselves.

Over the years I have dealt with, met known, several dozen such trans teens and they are all alive today - even the only one who actually attempted suicide at 15, long before trans identifying, who is bi polar with EuPD and was institutionalised in a paediatric psychiatric hospital for 18m [so forgive me if I feel her issues are likely nothing to do with her any trans identity].

To say I am fucking angry that this myth has been peddled is probably an understatement. It has given institutions who are supposed to support YP and their families a rod to beat them with, a way to manipulate and terrorise them. Schools, CAMHS, social services - the lot of them are directly responsible for the impact their mismanagement of my child’s care has had on our family. I will never forgive them for uncritically swallowing the bullshit that Mermaids and Stonewall promoted.

Edited

There are no words, literally no words.

FarriersGirl · 09/01/2026 11:03

@CautiousLurker2 I am almost speechless at what you and your family have been through. I cannot put myself in your shoes but I feel angry and upset that you and others have been put through such an ordeal. Flowers

Seethlaw · 09/01/2026 11:05

@CautiousLurker2 I don't know what to say. This is so horrific. Such cruelty, towards all your family.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 09/01/2026 11:08

I am so sorry @CautiousLurker2 FlowersFlowers I can't imagine what strength it must have taken you and your family even just to survive all that.

CautiousLurker2 · 09/01/2026 11:11

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/01/2026 11:00

Dear gods @CautiousLurker2, that is beyond horrific. I think all of us on these threads know that this sort of things happens, but it is harrowing to hear it spelled out. I am so, so sorry for what you and your family have gone through.

Vipers, if you ever needed a reminder of why we hold the line, this is a big one.

Thank you. Holding the line has been very hard - and I cried hard when the Cass report came out. When the messages from long since silent/absent friends popped in my inbox to say - aw, see you were right 🤬 - when my husband took me in his arms and cried to say how very grateful he was that our DD had me in her life holding the line because he genuinely came close to buckling himself.

She is not there yet - her arms are a mess, the scars never really seem to heal and fade and are emblematic of her mental state still, I think. she has never really had decent, neutral ASD/ADHD mentoring and counselling because the tendrils of this ideology creep into everything. But she is at university, and manages 60% attendance and her grades are doing okay. She is lucky (!!) we are financially well off and can ‘keep’ her for as long as it takes to find her feet. her safety net will be there for as long as we are alive to hold it out beneath her.

Our financial status, however, means we have not been able to join any of the class actions in place at the moment as our ‘wealth’ would bar other claimants from getting legal aid. All we can do on an activist level is share our experience, talk to the teams who are involved, our MPs etc, to make sure they truly understand how sinister, pernicious and, frankly, fucking evil gender ideology is.

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