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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

1000 replies

PassportPanicFuuuck · 03/01/2026 20:37

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

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ThatBlackCat · 08/01/2026 14:18

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:18

That's not all it comes down to though. Say we had a law that said you must only use spaces the match your biological sex. Would that really be enough? I've seen people say they don't want trans people teaching children, for example, a classroom isn't a single sex space. (Unless a boys/girls) school. It's an ideological issue that's bigger than just what toilets etc people use, that's why it's such a tricky subject

The problem is when a trans person asks young children to ignore what their eyes see and use wrong-sex pronouns. It gaslights children. It teaches them to ignore their lived experience, to ignore what they as children (and children do know a man from a woman) see. It confuses them. It removes their safeguards. And undermines their understanding (and stranger-danger). We tell our children to not believe the strange man outside in the van that he's there to pick them up from school. There was a case where an 11 year old girl was repeatedly raped by a male, who was dressed as a woman. The girl said she only went with him because he convinced her he was a woman, and she was cold walking home. This is what happens when we teach children to ignore their basic understanding of male and female. They have to work hard to deal with the cognitive dissonance of knowing their teacher is male but having to say mam/she/her. If trans people didn't insist on gaslighting children to mis-sex them, I doubt trans teachers would be an issue, or as much an issue as it is.

How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?
How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?
glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 14:19

Thanks to all who discussed this with me, I'm off as baby is up from her nap!

ThatBlackCat · 08/01/2026 14:19

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:29

I'm not really sure it's a fundamental human right, but I think women should generally be entitled to female spaces yes.

However, if everyone agreed on that and we passed laws about it, is that where the issue would end for you?

You don't think it's a fundamental human right for women and girls to have safety, privacy and dignity away from the male gaze?

Pingponghavoc · 08/01/2026 14:20

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:53

I'm not saying we should give up. Just wondering what else we do.

But I suppose the answer I'm gleaning from here is to reach a point where enough of society agrees on people only accessing spaces that match their biological gender, and clearly making that a law. How it's enforced though, I'm not sure.

You are talking as if single sex provision is a new never tried before concept?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 08/01/2026 14:21

@glitterpaperchain, with respect to your comment earlier about some GC people not wanting trans-identifying men to be teachers: while trans people should not be prevented from having gainful employment, there is an issue with them being in positions of authority over children. Namely: if a trans-identifying male teacher is asking children to call them she/Miss, they are probably asking children to ignore the evidence of their senses in favour of something that an adult has told them. In any other circumstances, this would be seen as a major safeguarding issue - adults should never require a child to lie about anything. It’s not a problem I have any idea about solving, but it should be acknowledged that it is a problem.

Helleofabore · 08/01/2026 14:22

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 14:17

Ah ok this is where we disagree, I don't think it's always possible to tell

Ok. The point become irrelevant if male people remain out of female single sex provisions (regardless of how they look) and respect that female people have the right to a legal definition that excludes them for ALL purposes.

Whether you believe that there is a male person out there that not one female person can correctly identify as being male or not, if male people respected law, policy and female people's needs, why would it matter?

And then why would we have to even have the conversation about who passes and who doesn't?

nicepotoftea · 08/01/2026 14:23

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 14:17

Ah ok this is where we disagree, I don't think it's always possible to tell

200 years ago I suspect a woman could pass as a man (or more likely a boy) by just wearing trousers. Now that we expect women to wear trousers, we spot other patterns.

Similarly when I first saw Clash of the Titans I thought the special effects were amazing, but now I can see the joins. New types of cosmetic surgery also become more obvious as they become more common.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 08/01/2026 14:24

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:53

I'm not saying we should give up. Just wondering what else we do.

But I suppose the answer I'm gleaning from here is to reach a point where enough of society agrees on people only accessing spaces that match their biological gender, and clearly making that a law. How it's enforced though, I'm not sure.

Policies and social expectation. The whole Sandy Peggie shitshow started just because a man thought he was allowed to use a women's changing room and his bosses thought he was allowed. If he and his bosses all knew he wasn't allowed, he could have found somewhere else to change, or his bosses could have provided somewhere else. The Equality Act 2010 would still have required his bosses to make a reasonable effort to provide somewhere suitable to his trans status so probably some kind of individual private space if he felt unable to use the men's facilities.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2026 14:24

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:12

I generally avoid this forum because I'm really torn on the whole issue. I have trans friends in real life, one of which I've been friends with since before their transition, and they are lovely genuine people who mean no harm, just get on with their lives, and don't fit any of the 'weird kink' stereotypes I see here.

However, I have seen and met other people who identify as trans for bad, disingenuous reasons, for attention, when they clearly have serious mental health issues, as a power thing etc. So it's hard for all of these people to be lumped in together.

I also think it's a difficult issue because there's the issue of men (cis men) pretending to be trans women to gain access to women's spaces etc. That's not a problem with genuine trans people, that's a problem with men, but it's part of the 'trans' debate.

It's just such a muddy issue with so many different things going on, I agree with some oponions here and not others, and it's hard to have open discussions without being seen as anti trans so the conversation isn't really going to be able to progress. So yes I agree in that I don't see how it can be resolved! The loudest voices are extremes on each end, and there's not a lot of space for reasoned debate somewhere in the middle

You seem to think no-one here isnt in a similar position.

There is an assumption that being here means you don't care about transpeople.

Recognising sex is real and can't be changed isn't ever an extreme position. It's the only possible position. It's the conclusion that the SC ultimately came to.

The trouble is this is at odds with the idea that doing so is bad, doesn't respect transpeople and harms them. And people like you are desperate not to hurt people they care about.

Unfortunately it's an unreality. You can't protect people from the unreality of their belief. This doesn't mean you can't protect them. It just means you can't protect them from the truth.

Indeed trans people NEED the definition of sex to mean sex. Without it, you can't identify someone trans from someone non trans. The whole point is that the status of being trans is in relation to your physical being and sex. If you can't identify sex, anyone can claim trans status. That's me, that's you. That's anyone who wants to get the legal protection of classing yourself as trans. Women lose their protections and homosexuals also lose their protection. Ironically you have to see sex to see transphobia, homophobia and sexism. This extends from safeguarding to sport to healthcare to education to workplace to everything.

You can't replace sex with gender because you still need to refer to reproduction and healthcare. These protections protect HCPs and transpeople alike. If you were forced to treat people as the gender you are in healthcare you would risk the health of a patient and a doctor would be potentially forced to harm a patient. Equally if a doctor refused to do this and treated a patient as the sex they are in a professional manner they would still risk being sued by vexatious nutters. This isn't okay in either scenario. Thus you have no option in law but to recognise this. In terms of patient care it also needs to be referenced whether a patient likes it or not. There are scenarios such as blood donation where this is particularly important not just to an individual but to others.

You also can't define gender in law easily. And certainly not without referencing sex. Otherwise you get bogged down in sexism. This is why everyone avoids the question. They know it's a circular argument that relies on sex as it's foundation.

Once you understand these points there's literally no where else to go with the argument. Sex isn't a biased anti-trans thing. It's a neutral identifier that is essential to women and transpeople regardless of how either feels about it. It has to be recognised in law.

From here the next most important thing in terms of law is safeguarding. That's a human right. Women, homosexuals and transpeople all need safeguarding - you can't safeguard lesbians without seeing sex and homosexuality. You can't allow transwomen to colonise the concept of lesbianism as that's homophobic. You can call yourself homogendered but not lesbian or homosexual. Otherwise you harm lesbians in law. You also have transpeople who are same sex attracted who still need the protection of being recognised as homosexual even if they wish to call themselves something else. This extends to human rights, equality considerations and to health and safety.

Transpeople need the protection of sex and gender reassignment (where applicable). Both rely on sex.

Then there's women who rely on sex and have a legal right to exemption and single sex on the grounds of legitimate aim. This is where transpeople get the hump - they fail to recognise the legitimacy of the legitimate aim. Instead they think they have the absolute right to inclusion. This isn't true. They have a right to fair treatment, privacy, dignity and protection. But not automatic inclusion on the basis of their gender identity or gender reassignment.

This is unavoidable due to the harms to women and discrimination against women. It just means transpeople need different provision. This is what isn't being accepted.

This isn't womens problem to resolve. Nor is it for them to compromise their rights. It's for rights for transpeople to be exercised in a different way which protects both parties.

There isn't a way around this. Too many transpeople don't want to acknowledge this. Nor do their allies who don't want their friends and family upset. But ultimately it's the only way they can be protected and other groups be protected. Because people are nice they don't want to admit this so go into a state of denial or even fence sitting flapping their arms that they think it's difficult and they don't want to hurt said persons feelings. The trouble is those feelings are based on an untruth that has no substance and definable qualities that the law can discern without harming another. There isn't an ability to uphold a fantasy in law as much as anyone might wish it. But no one wants to be the 'bad guy' and say this out loud. So they couch language and pretend it's harm. It's really not.

We have to recognise the transient nature of gender reassignment and gender incongruity - especially in child - because of irreversibly, various at risk groups (children, autism, trauma, abuse, homosexuality) because we also know about harms and we know about detransition. And various rates associated with this. We can't ignore this. Minors have a higher priority than adults in terms of human rights too. We do not have a choice if we are neutral about this.

It all comes back to a small group not liking this and every one else being fucking terrified of saying it or even thinking it.

So it can be resolved fairly and safely. If we acknowledge this is all as neutral as it is.

The problem is that we have so many people in denial or unprepared to say no where appropriate.

This isn't a law problem. Nor is it a GC critical problem. It's a problem with people tripping over themselves to be nice rather than understanding that it's not about being nice and that sometimes being nice isn't possible for reasons that actually protect an individual even if they don't wish to accept that.

The law and society can only reference material reality to offer protection and fairness. It can not prioritise belief over and above this because harms always gets precedence. There's some bits around the edges but ultimately if you have a group set up for women and the premise of the group is about how women face barriers to sport because of sex, it has to reflect that legitimate aim. You can't fudge it to be nice because you undermine the legitimate aim. This doesn't stop groups which might be inclusive of transpeople. It's just that the premise of that group has to be focused in a different manner.

Inclusivity is not a right on its own - that's the point.

Helleofabore · 08/01/2026 14:27

"This isn't a law problem. Nor is it a GC critical problem. It's a problem with people tripping over themselves to be nice rather than understanding that it's not about being nice and that sometimes being nice isn't possible for reasons that actually protect an individual even if they don't wish to accept that."

Indeed Red.

This needs to be posted on every page on some threads.

MyAmpleSheep · 08/01/2026 14:31

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 13:58

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I didn't mean either of those things.

No no. You may not have meant to advance those arguments, but they're clearly baked into your thinking.

Here's your not-my-nigel, in your own words:

I have trans friends in real life, one of which I've been friends with since before their transition, and they are lovely genuine people who mean no harm, just get on with their lives, and don't fit any of the 'weird kink' stereotypes I see here.

You are 1000% propping up your be-kind argument with a not-my-nigel.

And here's your no-true-trans, again, in your own words:

I also think it's a difficult issue because there's the issue of men (cis men) pretending to be trans women to gain access to women's spaces etc. That's not a problem with genuine trans people, that's a problem with men, but it's part of the 'trans' debate.

The phrase "Cis men pretending to be trans" is classic no-true-trans.

You have got to see through and past these tropes to understand what's going on here.

MyAmpleSheep · 08/01/2026 14:36

glitterpaperchain · 08/01/2026 14:06

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic? I've seen plenty of trans women who are biological men but look completely like women and I would never guess.

This is a weirdly callous and rude response when I'm trying to genuinely engage with the discussion

I've seen plenty of trans women who are biological men but look completely like women and I would never guess.

Well that's just silly. If they're indistinguishable from women then how would you know? How did you know?

You must see the parallel with voyeurism: a woman being spied on is still victimized even if she doesn't know and never finds out. A woman being misled about a male presence is still misled and victimized, even if she never finds out the "woman" is actually a man.

Does the word "consent" mean nothing to you?

TheKeatingFive · 08/01/2026 14:38

This isn't a law problem. Nor is it a GC critical problem. It's a problem with people tripping over themselves to be nice rather than understanding that it's not about being nice and that sometimes being nice isn't possible for reasons that actually protect an individual even if they don't wish to accept that.

I don't even think this is about being nice. It's about having the critical thinking and moral framework to assess whether what people are asking for is reasonable or not.

I struggle to understand how this issue gained traction in the first place, because men demanding access to women's spaces is totally unreasonable in my eyes.

So instead of flapping about how difficult it is to appease everyone, it should have been recognised that unreasonable requests do not need to be granted and that trans identifying men should be campaigning for third spaces or more unisex provision instead.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2026 14:43

I've seen people say they don't want trans people teaching children

Ok why?

The reason often isn't because they don't want transpeople to teach. The issue is over age inappropriate ideas and concepts before children are capable of understanding those ideas fully.

It's a safeguarding issue in the same way that we perhaps don't introduce certain films to children before a certain age.

The need to be safeguarded to allow time to develop a full understanding of sex - and that it can't be changed. This applies to kids who may end up trans themselves. They need the time and space to explore this at an age appropriate time.

Theres nothing to stop a transperson teaching or presenting as they like within professional parameters. The problem is with self declarations of gender and use of pronouns. Thus Ms Smith has to professionally perhaps be Mr Smith and Ms Smith outside of school only for example.

We need to recognise this and have those difficult conversations about what is ok when and when it's not though.

Taztoy · 08/01/2026 14:45

I don’t understand why women saying no is so difficult for men.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2026 14:47

To reiterate. The problem in the above scenario isn't about employment. It's about inappropriate conduct in the workplace for that environment and the compulsion and forced participation of others.

The idea we can't respect transpeople if we don't use pronouns is rot really. It's just they don't like it much.

We are perfectly capable of civility and even friendship without having to have the same beliefs.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2026 14:48

TheKeatingFive · 08/01/2026 14:38

This isn't a law problem. Nor is it a GC critical problem. It's a problem with people tripping over themselves to be nice rather than understanding that it's not about being nice and that sometimes being nice isn't possible for reasons that actually protect an individual even if they don't wish to accept that.

I don't even think this is about being nice. It's about having the critical thinking and moral framework to assess whether what people are asking for is reasonable or not.

I struggle to understand how this issue gained traction in the first place, because men demanding access to women's spaces is totally unreasonable in my eyes.

So instead of flapping about how difficult it is to appease everyone, it should have been recognised that unreasonable requests do not need to be granted and that trans identifying men should be campaigning for third spaces or more unisex provision instead.

Agree.

See my point about teaching.

JellySaurus · 08/01/2026 14:50

Taztoy · 08/01/2026 12:26

I thought it was flies and wasps we wanted to catch not bees?

Ballet muddled their metaphor. It's You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Definitely leave the bees be. Flies spread diseases, bees spread pollen.

Taztoy · 08/01/2026 14:51

JellySaurus · 08/01/2026 14:50

Ballet muddled their metaphor. It's You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Definitely leave the bees be. Flies spread diseases, bees spread pollen.

that’s exactly what I thought.

Seethlaw · 08/01/2026 14:54

Taztoy · 08/01/2026 14:45

I don’t understand why women saying no is so difficult for men.

Because they don't see women as full people. Women are half-objects, and objects don't get to have an opinion different from their owner's.

ThatBlackCat · 08/01/2026 14:55

JellySaurus · 08/01/2026 14:50

Ballet muddled their metaphor. It's You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Definitely leave the bees be. Flies spread diseases, bees spread pollen.

And we really need bees. Their population is sadly being decimated.

nicepotoftea · 08/01/2026 14:55

TheKeatingFive · 08/01/2026 14:38

This isn't a law problem. Nor is it a GC critical problem. It's a problem with people tripping over themselves to be nice rather than understanding that it's not about being nice and that sometimes being nice isn't possible for reasons that actually protect an individual even if they don't wish to accept that.

I don't even think this is about being nice. It's about having the critical thinking and moral framework to assess whether what people are asking for is reasonable or not.

I struggle to understand how this issue gained traction in the first place, because men demanding access to women's spaces is totally unreasonable in my eyes.

So instead of flapping about how difficult it is to appease everyone, it should have been recognised that unreasonable requests do not need to be granted and that trans identifying men should be campaigning for third spaces or more unisex provision instead.

I think the thought process didn't go any further than

'Well the poor chaps must really mean it if they want to do that to themselves, how appalling!'

TheKeatingFive · 08/01/2026 14:56

nicepotoftea · 08/01/2026 14:55

I think the thought process didn't go any further than

'Well the poor chaps must really mean it if they want to do that to themselves, how appalling!'

Yes exactly

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