How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Or perhaps not...!

I doubt it will further a debate, but I wanted to say I absolutely agree with you!

I don’t know! But it’s an interesting question - how did people overcome past social contagion or beliefs like witch hunting? USSR? The moonies? The Chinese Cultural Revolution? Can history give us any pointers?

I believe that Orwell said that the 20th century was a fight against 3 different ideologies

1. The end of colonialism
2. Facism - take up arms and attempt to eradicate like vermin
3. Communism - very problematic as friends/family took up these flawed ideas which made it difficult to push back against

Im not well enough acquainted with Orwell to know what he suggested as a solution to this - apparent human fallibility to ridiculous group think

i realise that I’ve been so lucky to live most of my life unaffected by strong ideology. Maybe the last 100 years of full suffrage / democracy experiment was just a weird blip and GI is a symptom of it failing?

Sorry for that depressing thought

Haha! Thank you for saying so.

You’ve already summed it up: people do not have the right to get what they want just because they want it. Particularly not when that harms others and destroys their human rights.

My position is that the problem will be resolved when the GRA is removed from the statute books, kink is banished back behind closed doors, children are safeguarded from harm, and truth and honesty are respected.

I think the past five years will be relegated to a weird chapter in a history book one day to teach future generations about the dangers of social contagion and a lack of strong boundaries and effective governance by institutions.

That's quite a wide-ranging list of phenomena you have there! I guess in a lot of cases society just moves on almost imperceptibly, although if there is a "need" for some sort of cultural or psychological outlet then the phenomenon can be supplanted by something else; so with teenage girls hysterical fainting might be replaced by anorexia which is replaced by cutting which is replaced by gender identity expression.

With other things there is perhaps a more tangible and clear-cut change in attitudes and actions that can be seen to happen at a particular point in time, perhaps precipitated by a war or something like a significant economic depression, or perhaps concerted campaigns such as women's suffrage.

I do think this current social contagion is quite unusual in the way it seems to have made it so difficult for people to speak out against it. Has it simply coincided with "cancel culture" or was it instrumental in creating it? I'm not quite sure.

@JellySaurus great summation. Your input on the Elderly parents thread would be useful. You can’t always get what you want, etc

Are you being sarcastic?

I keep coming across really quite grim videos featuring people revelling in the excitement of being sexy lady-boys. I'm sure that's not a PC term, but these "trans women" seem to have no gender dysphoria whatsoever; rather they appear to be flaunting their male sexuality and drawing attention to their genitals. I suppose this is AGP in action.

My reaction (other than to be slightly disgusted) is to think, "What do you actually want?? Is this whole thing just one big kink-fest?"

Is this whole thing just one big kink-fest?"

Short answer, surely yes, largely. But this isn't some craze like trepanning or pet rocks that's just going to go away. There's a whole infrastructure here, careers have been established, etc, etc. It is still mostly supported by The Establishment (to use a rather old-fashioned term 😀).

I don't think it ever will fully. It'll diminish but there are too many people invested in it who won't want to say they got it wrong, like John Boyne did and to a certain extent Wes Streeting. Hopefully the gov will get their fingers out early this year but even when they do there are a lot of companies and orgs wanting to bang the Tra drum.
And when the PB trial is over and it furnishes them with the ammo they want, which it probably will because the kids are only going to be documented for two years, they'll sling another load of mud.
When I say they, I don't mean law abiding wanting to quietly get on with their lives trans people, I mean Tras.

This, the issue is the TRA don’t want it resolved, they want full and total capitulation.

Not a chance

Sorry, I think there are a few typos - I don't understand your first para.

I was listening to Stella O'Malley and Lionel Shiver and LS says (and I'm completely paraphrasing so I hope this is coherent) that the social justice warriors will move on and find a new cause and we'll be left with a lot of unhappy young adults who have made irreversible changes to their bodies and no one will care about them. She also says the idea that you need a gender identity to be interesting will cease to exist and young people will be like so what.

I think basically it will just stop being a thing and the likes of HW has already shown they have no interest in de-transisioners.

I think HJ also makes an excellent point about the PB trial. That we're putting these children on a pathway to cross sex hormones and transitioning (whatever that means) but that at the same time the law is clear that sex means biological sex. So how do we square giving a young girl/boy cross sex hormones telling them they can live as they opposite sex but at the same time tell them the law says if a space or category says women/men you cannot enter the space of the sex you have "transitioned" to.

Hope that makes sense!

I think I was trying to- in my rather waffly way - to say that any ideology or dogma creates a cancel culture to opposing views once it’s achieved a certain status or if fighting for survival. Some movements have cancelled by killing while in our society it’s social outcasting. someone maybe on another thread said the Stazi used threats to people’s livelihoods and families first, then moved to more extreme methods later.

im reminded of visiting historic homes and castles and being shown “priest holes” where religious differences lead to secretive practices and some beliefs being considered unacceptable. I don’t know enough history to understand how we moved on from that episode… hopefully someone else will appear to educate me?!

How would a belief based on philosophical theory only and not established any physical science or even logic continue to be supported when society is being coerced into acting as if they believe in it? Not just exist side by side with it, but have to act as if they believe it.

It was never a long term proposition. It was only going to survive while society was influenceable after same sex marriage was being legalised around the world. Because of the false forced teaming that has been used to compare this group’s campaigning vs those seeking rightful same sex marriage rights.

However, there is nothing but emotional manipulation supporting the group demanding that gender identity is prioritised over sex when sex matters. There never was anything but emotional manipulation for what is only a philosophical belief of a group of rather diverse people.

Even language has been destabilised and the group has now also engaged wider societal enforcement. You only have to remember not even 12 months ago how posters could not use male pronouns for a male person with a transgender identity.

Each year, more and more people understand just what has been demanded of them and have rejected those demands. The opinion tracker polls show societal change. From Hubbard and Thomas in sports, to Bryson, the SC judgement and the Upton and Darlington cases. These have all been shifts in the paradigm.

I don’t ever see it going back to 5-7 years ago. Too many people have realised it was not something based in established science. Despite all the effort expended to convince us all that it was all very complicated and there was hard science to support it all. Well it wasn’t complicated and there is no established science or evidenced science. So, it will take time to unpick but it will get better.

I am sure there will be people declaring they are transgender. But I hope that society never prioritises there demands over the sex based needs of others again

I think this is already happening. I have teenagers and the trans movement is already seen as deeply uncool and attention seeking amongst young people here. My daughter made a comment about “blue hair” the other day which is a bit of a cliche comment you would previously only have heard from much older people. I think it’s already had its day and feel very sorry for the poor young people for whom things have already gone too far and who will be left behind.

Maybe those kids who weren’t really genuine is what’s going to go away

but the rest isn’t going away, it will continue to gain traction

The whole thing has been a bit of a social experiment so far so I guess we will see!!

https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1OwxWeQmXMWGQ?s=20
I think interviews from a few years ago are very telling. Wonder what JM would say now.

And another issue is that we are Terf Island. We have managed to slow down the trans juggernaut. The wheels are coming off it here. But what about countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, which have passed laws legitimising trans ideology and delegitimising everyone and everything that does not bow down before it?