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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/12/2025 22:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025
Thread 59: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5459115-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-59 12 December 2025 to 17 December 2025

OP posts:
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38
ProtectedlyInsufferable · 29/12/2025 11:57

There’s a piece about Kemp in today’s Courier. It has nothing new, but maybe suggests they are trying to find him. Obviously, if he is in fact an avatar, they won’t!

nauticant · 29/12/2025 12:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2025 11:24

Remember that he supported women briefly at one point and got slapped down hard.

https://x.com/JolyonMaugham/status/954049878140825601

OP posts:
SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 29/12/2025 12:03

possomblossom · 29/12/2025 11:42

Is it not possible that SP's team's decision to pay for stenographic services might be of some benefit in the future..?

Without this (and open justice), would the only publically available record of the case be the judgment itself?

prh47bridge · 29/12/2025 12:06

NebulousSupportPostcard · 29/12/2025 10:26

All of this. But also it makes me afraid that the wide exposure (and high profile nature) of the case is the unprecedented part. I can't help wondering how many other cases may have been determined using AI-generated law. Other cases may not matter as much to the world at large, but they concern the livelihoods of the individuals who bring those cases. It's terrifying that people may go through injustice at work, only to be visited by further injustice when they turn to the employment tribunal for a decision.

The good news is that, in the vast majority of tribunal cases, there is no argument over what the law says. The arguments are more about what happened. And, of course, most cases don't involve anything like as many witnesses or as much evidence as this one. So the main thing the tribunal has to do is decide which witnesses to believe. AI can't help with that.

Even in this case, I doubt the tribunal used AI to figure out what the law is. It is more likely they decided what they thought the outcome should be and what the law was, and then Kemp used AI to generate a judgement supporting their decision.

prh47bridge · 29/12/2025 12:10

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 29/12/2025 12:03

Without this (and open justice), would the only publically available record of the case be the judgment itself?

Yes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2025 12:11

Nauticant has the receipts, @ProfessorBinturong

KnottyAuty · 29/12/2025 12:15

ProtectedlyInsufferable · 29/12/2025 11:57

There’s a piece about Kemp in today’s Courier. It has nothing new, but maybe suggests they are trying to find him. Obviously, if he is in fact an avatar, they won’t!

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5397307/sandy-kemp-nhs-fife-sandie-peggie/

archive not yet available

Who is Sandy Kemp? Judge at the heart of NHS Fife Sandie Peggie row

The veteran employment lawyer is under scrutiny over errors discovered in his trans tribunal ruling.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5397307/sandy-kemp-nhs-fife-sandie-peggie/

oldtiredcyclist · 29/12/2025 12:15

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 29/12/2025 09:49

I’m sure Rachel McKinnon said the same thing, word for word.
So Upton isn’t even original in his bullshit.
For a Judge to buy it, though…Christ.

Ah yes, Rachel McKinnon, the infamous "Canuck Sasquatch". I believe this is the thesis extract, or maybe even the title. Probably a good idea to read the article after a couple of glasses of fine red wine.

"Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About"

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/items/d6e712b1-9e37-425f-9418-96abfbeb3304

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 29/12/2025 12:19

prh47bridge · 29/12/2025 12:10

Yes.

My understanding is that the Judge's notes also form part of the record - do these ever published or referred to in appeals? Does anyone get to see them?

Keeptoiletssafe · 29/12/2025 12:24

Talking about evidence, there’s a huge amount of emotive language used by men who want to use women’s provision. It would be useful to know why. I collect evidence.

Victoria McCloud reckons someone is going to get killed and ‘I hope, not going to be me’ and that people don’t want to be in a callous country where single sex toilets are single sex toilets.
Getting murdered in a public toilet in this country is incredibly rare for anyone. Dying in a public toilet is not rare but usually due to drug overdoses, medical emergencies and self harm. What helps the chances of surviving such a situation is if people realise the occupant is in trouble.

In an interview with Victoria McCloud by Laura Kuenssberg on BBC Sounds in June, is this answer that starts off about a pub that then goes to ‘…it’s dangerous I think, or risky, or at least rather intimidating to have a space for women that is occupied by men if it’s somewhere like a loo or a changing room’.
It goes from dangerous (attention grabbing) to intimidating (‘at least’ implies the standard to which everything else just gets worse).
If you state ‘dangerous’ you need evidence, like I have for enclosed and unisex toilets.

So in this Fife case, would (ex) Judge McCloud determine this room used as a changing room was dangerous, risky or ‘just’ rather intimidating for SP? A synonym for ‘intimidate’ is ‘harass’.

There’s also Robin Moira White who says, when he worked on the railways, there were no women’s toilets (not unusual at that time, we’ve never had equity) so when women started working they used to check the toilets to see if there was a man in them before the woman would go in. The men were doing this presumably because they didn’t want anyone to be put in an uncomfortable situation. I would have thought the men sensed it was possibly intimidating for the woman so they checked for her.

It’s bizarre how we got to this point of a free for all. And worse, the EHRC advocating for adding ad-hoc enclosed unisex provision retrospectively without looking at the health and safety evidence of what happens in these spaces. Or Zoë Leventhal KC, making submissions on behalf of Bridget Phillipson that perhaps single sex toilets could be mixed sex on some sort of ad-hoc basis. It doesn’t work like that. All toilet designs would have to become enclosed and mixed sex unless you ignored all the health and safety legislation, building regs, building standards and possibly revise the Sexual Offences Act. You would also have to ignore doing risk assessments and equality impact assessments.

ArabellaSaurus · 29/12/2025 12:24

RoyalCorgi · 29/12/2025 11:13

It's eye-opening, isn't it? I think for most of us following the case, it was so obvious that Sandie Peggie was right, both morally and legally, we thought she was bound to win. The only way the case could go against her would be if the tribunal judge(s) were so blinded by misogyny that they would wilfully misinterpret the law to find in favour of the defendants. And that couldn't happen, right...?

Its not just misogyny, which can be and often is unconscious. Call me naive but part of me genuinely expects a judge to hold logic and fairness and the rule of law in the highest regard.

As far as I can see, he can only have written this judgment by starting with a conclusion and working backwards.

Which is so very deeply wrong and counter to how the law is supposed to work that its genuinely shocking.

I mean, he must know and have known he was doing it.

nauticant · 29/12/2025 12:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/12/2025 12:11

Nauticant has the receipts, @ProfessorBinturong

edit: replied to wrong post

OP posts:
nauticant · 29/12/2025 12:26

oldtiredcyclist · 29/12/2025 12:15

Ah yes, Rachel McKinnon, the infamous "Canuck Sasquatch". I believe this is the thesis extract, or maybe even the title. Probably a good idea to read the article after a couple of glasses of fine red wine.

"Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About"

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/items/d6e712b1-9e37-425f-9418-96abfbeb3304

These days, the target sport to spoil is women's golf:

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1959870193901179332

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 29/12/2025 12:40

nauticant · 29/12/2025 12:26

These days, the target sport to spoil is women's golf:

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1959870193901179332

Good grief! Not good enough to win at a men’s tournament VN uses male advantage to cheat in women’s competitions. What a horrible, selfish individual

MyAmpleSheep · 29/12/2025 12:41

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 29/12/2025 12:19

My understanding is that the Judge's notes also form part of the record - do these ever published or referred to in appeals? Does anyone get to see them?

There’s a big row going on about that right now. I don’t recall the context other than it was about challenging judicial bias, but it was in the headlines a couple of weeks ago. As things stand, no, the notes belong to the judge and nobody can demand access to them.

EDIT: this may be what I am recalling, having read it only a couple of weeks ago:
https://davidhencke.com/2024/08/09/time-to-ask-the-lord-chancellor-to-intervene-to-make-employment-tribunal-transcripts-available-and-release-judges-notes/

Shortshriftandlethal · 29/12/2025 12:48

nicepotoftea · 29/12/2025 11:36

I think we thought that judges were better.

Kemp's conclusion just doesn't make sense. He is of the generation that would have been a teenager in the seventies and eighties, so God only knows where he gets the concept of a 'female hair style'. His idea that a woman's perception of a man should change depending on his clothes and hair style is nuts - and that's before you take into account the fact that people wearing scrubs have limited options when it comes to presentation. This was all covered in the SC judgement.

Even from the point of view of trans people, his suggestions are nonsense. He seems to be suggesting ongoing regular staff consultation to decide which facilities they can use.

New theory - the real judge Kemp is kidnapped somewhere and this man just turned up one day pretending to be a judge. This also explains the use of AI.

Edited

Personally, I thought he seemed lacking in any curioisty or active interest throughout the whole trial.

nicepotoftea · 29/12/2025 12:56

ArabellaSaurus · 29/12/2025 12:24

Its not just misogyny, which can be and often is unconscious. Call me naive but part of me genuinely expects a judge to hold logic and fairness and the rule of law in the highest regard.

As far as I can see, he can only have written this judgment by starting with a conclusion and working backwards.

Which is so very deeply wrong and counter to how the law is supposed to work that its genuinely shocking.

I mean, he must know and have known he was doing it.

He must have know that his conclusion was contentious and that it would be scrutinised.

Even if he didn't value logic and fairness, I'm surprised that he doesn't seem to have valued his own reputation.

Londonmummy66 · 29/12/2025 12:58

The comments Kemp made about the credibility of Upton reminded me of DD's former headmistress. When I went to see her about a particularly vicious case of year 10/11 bullying she assured me that "I've known Vipsania since she was in nursery such a lovely child - no way would she have said and done that". It almost feels as if Kemp was thinking - "Dear little Theodore was such a delightful boy/girl/child twirling round in his/her/their pink tutu" I know that there is a lot of misogyny and classism in both the bar and medicine but this almost feels like a personal endorsement of the son of a friend (of a friend).

Beyond that, given that unlike EJ Sutherland, he wasn't known to be captured, the only charitable explanation I can find for his bizarre judgement and misapplication of the slip rule is that he was so cowed by personal threats from trans activists and pressure to conform from above that he basically had a breakdown and asked AI to do the job for him as he couldn't.

ProfessorBinturong · 29/12/2025 13:26

MyAmpleSheep · 29/12/2025 12:41

There’s a big row going on about that right now. I don’t recall the context other than it was about challenging judicial bias, but it was in the headlines a couple of weeks ago. As things stand, no, the notes belong to the judge and nobody can demand access to them.

EDIT: this may be what I am recalling, having read it only a couple of weeks ago:
https://davidhencke.com/2024/08/09/time-to-ask-the-lord-chancellor-to-intervene-to-make-employment-tribunal-transcripts-available-and-release-judges-notes/

Edited

As I understand it, some tribunals are recorded. If there is a recording you can pay for a transcript - which costs £1,000+.

If there's no recording you¹ can apply for a copy of the judges notes, but it is up to the judge whether to supply them or not.

¹ Not sure if 'you' here is anyone or only limited categories of people.

CraftyRedBird · 29/12/2025 13:30

Even in this case, I doubt the tribunal used AI to figure out what the law is. It is more likely they decided what they thought the outcome should be and what the law was, and then Kemp used AI to generate a judgement supporting their decision.

IANAL but clearly that's the problem. Judges are supposed to find the relevant law, apply facts and come to a judgement.

KeepupKardigans · 29/12/2025 13:34

If this does go to appeal and with the pending ones against the named individuals and the Union would the finer details of Fife’s internal investigation against SP be introduced as evidence? SP was cleared of harassment etc against BU but the case against BU by SP not proven if I understand correctly? The three named individuals would have featured prominently in related emails and any evidence.

WearyAuldWumman · 29/12/2025 13:38

I’m a working class Fife Boomer who attended Glasgow U.

Many of the students were misogynistic posh boys - I recall a Kelvinside Academy fp actually bringing his fist down on my head when he lost an argument to me in the Slavonic Languages common room.

It seemed to be a shock to those types that there were working class students. “What does your father do?” was followed by silence when I said “He’s a coal miner.”

My late husband found similar at Aberdeen, where he was a mature student, previously estate worker.
(SK went to Aberdeen, but I don’t know his background.)

DH went along to the Scottish lit soc and was taken aback to hear a plummy voice announcing “We have an authentic one here!”

If SK is one of those types, SP didn’t stand a chance.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 29/12/2025 13:44

MarieDeGournay · 29/12/2025 10:30

Not just that SP's evidence was ideologically driven, but her words to DrU in the CR were 'proselyting', which is grounds for dismissal:

1017 The claimant’s comments in our view were broadly similar to cases where proselytizing which led to dismissal was held to be lawful and not discrimination because of religion or belief in Chondol v Liverpool City Council [2009] UKEAT 0298/08, Grace v Places for Children [2013] UKEAT 0217/13 and Wasteney v East London NHS Foundation Trust [2016] ICR 643 the first and third of which the Court of Appeal approved in Kuteh v Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust [2019] EWCA Civ 818 as were all three again by the Court of Appeal in Higgs. What the claimant was doing in our view was seeking to impose her view on the second respondent that the second respondent should not be in the changing room.

A biological male insisting on using the women's changing room is however not at all 'seeking to impose his view' on the claimant, in the judge's view.

I had to read
cases where proselytizing which led to dismissal was held to be lawful and not discrimination
a few times but I believe the judge meant that the dismissals were lawful, not the proselytising. Should have been edited for clarity!

I haven't read this thread for a while, and things have got um..... interesting at times.

I'd like to put on record that there have been occasions when posters - myself included, I wrote a number of 'To be fair to Big Sond' posts - tried to see things from the judge's point of view, from the strictly legal point of view, from a neutral point of view, etc.

Eventually even the most even-handed of us, even Librans and AquariansGrin, had to give up trying to explain away or excuse the avalanche of evidence that something was seriously wrong with the whole judgement.

I already posted about the weird grammar of "cases where proselytizing which led to dismissal was held to be lawful and not discrimination".

I thought that using the word proselytizing was very strange indeed. The word means trying to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another but there was zero evidence of any proselytising (to use British spelling) by Sandie Peggie.

CarefulN0w · 29/12/2025 13:47

Kemp's conclusion just doesn't make sense. He is of the generation that would have been a teenager in the seventies and eighties, so God only knows where he gets the concept of a 'female hair style'. His idea that a woman's perception of a man should change depending on his clothes and hair style is nuts.
I’m just a few years younger than Kemp, and although long hair, make-up and androgynous dressing was fashionable, there were still plenty of men who openly called men who wore earrings “poofs” so I don’t think it was universally accepted. I can imagine in the professional legal circles Kemp entered as a young man, long hair was not seen.

prh47bridge · 29/12/2025 14:17

CraftyRedBird · 29/12/2025 13:30

Even in this case, I doubt the tribunal used AI to figure out what the law is. It is more likely they decided what they thought the outcome should be and what the law was, and then Kemp used AI to generate a judgement supporting their decision.

IANAL but clearly that's the problem. Judges are supposed to find the relevant law, apply facts and come to a judgement.

My point is that the tribunal did find the relevant law (albeit they got it wrong), applied the facts (again got that wrong) then came to a judgement. If AI was used, it was to produce a written judgement that incorporated their interpretation of the law and facts. The tribunal did not use AI to make the judgement, but they may have used AI to produce the written judgement.

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