Page 10 | Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

DustyWindowsills · 19/12/2025 09:11

WearyAuldWumman · 19/12/2025 08:23

It doesn't save money. The end result was that DH needed rehab when he wouldn't have had he been properly diagnosed.

It was a busy Saturday morning and a young lad with no experience was left in charge. He hadn't been able to move his left arm at all when he got in. An hour later he could move it - but without proper control. The young doctor thought this meant it was a TIA and resolving itself. No one spoke to me. They assumed it had happened during the night.

The stroke happened about 7.30. i got him in straight away (via paramedics). By the time the more senior doctor arrived it must have been around 10.30. He questioned me, ascertained the time of the stroke - which the paramedics must have known - and sent DH for a scan.

When DH got back, the doctor phoned a consultant for advice. I heard bits of the phonecall. He was told that it was his call and he went with no injection because they were at the edge of the 4 hr window.

I have no idea why only one young doctor had been on. When I was in there for myself, the day before the Upton/Peggie encounter, the A&E appeared to be fully staffed.

I know that other stroke patients in the same day as DH also had a calamitous outcome.

DH was in the Acute Stroke ward for a fortnight. There was a young man in there who'd been waiting for rehab for 3 months.

DH was transferred to the best rehab - Cameron Hospital. They tried to persuade me to accept Glenrothes: "It'll be easier for you. Closer to home."

I refused. They got him a place at Cameron - I think because they were trying to avoid an official complaint.

DH was in Cameron for more than 3 months, learning to walk again.

After the stroke, he couldn't even sit up and had two falls in the Vic because he wasn't properly supervised.

The first time, he forgot he'd had a stroke and fell out of bed, trying to get to a toilet. This was less than 24 hrs after. The second time, I was in the room with him and they were positively triumphant about that. The fact of the matter is they'd not had him assessed and stupidly had put him in an ordinary chair - as pointed out by an auxiliary.

When he got into Cameron, he was black down one side. The nurses there asked what had happened to him. I think they thought he was a victim of elder abuse.

A man who had his stroke the same day as DH was found under his bed after a fall. I know because his wife told me.

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So sorry to hear this. DM's case is not as bad. On Monday she was transferred from A&E to an acute stroke ward in another hospital (because that's where a bed was available) and now they want rid of her. That much I can understand. To them, she's just a batty old lady who can't look after herself. What we can't impress upon them is that just 5 days ago she was functioning like a person 10 or 20 years younger. To plan for the future, it would be helpful to know, for example, whether she is likely to regain the ability to use a phone or an electric kettle. That is all we need: a realistic prognosis, not one that completely ignores her medical history. I'm baffled by the lack of communication, and have to wonder if it's partly to do with the current junior doctors' strike.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 09:22

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 19/12/2025 01:02

I'd be really interested in a direct quote from one of these policies, or to be pointed to one if any are publicly accessible.

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This is from Bradford Teaching Hospital’s Trans Equality Policy

p. 27
With some people who are Trans the dementia might cause them to regress to their birth gender. Staff should be aware that families can take advantage of this and try to keep all their Trans support network away. It is important for Staff to ensure that they do not collude with the family or other people who may be taking advantage of someone’s situation (their dementia) to make them into a person they did not want to be. (“Over the Rainbow” – Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans People and Dementia Project, February 2015).

[“research” paper referred to is the one I linked to, above]

SwirlyGates · 19/12/2025 09:33

oldtiredcyclist · 19/12/2025 07:33

Would you consider that Dr Upton, given what he has stated in the tribunal, would act in the patient's best interests and not in his own best interests?

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I certainly wouldn't. And look what happened with "Rose" Henderson, attending an intimate operation of his colleague who he was in dispute with. I'm not sure whether this was "Rose"s choice, but someone put him there and ignored the other nurse's wishes and privacy.

DrBlackbird · 19/12/2025 09:36

I'm baffled by the lack of communication, and have to wonder if it's partly to do with the current junior doctors' strike.

IMO, communication by healthcare professionals is abysmal. It may partly due to workload but really also because they’re not trained in it, the focus is on diagnostics and many clever doctors are terrible at the ‘bed side manner’.

I’m also terrified of having a stroke in this country. Something planned like open heart surgery in a large teaching hospital, fine. But a stroke in any A&E? God. Absolutely petrified.

DrBlackbird · 19/12/2025 09:46

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 09:22

This is from Bradford Teaching Hospital’s Trans Equality Policy

p. 27
With some people who are Trans the dementia might cause them to regress to their birth gender. Staff should be aware that families can take advantage of this and try to keep all their Trans support network away. It is important for Staff to ensure that they do not collude with the family or other people who may be taking advantage of someone’s situation (their dementia) to make them into a person they did not want to be. (“Over the Rainbow” – Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans People and Dementia Project, February 2015).

[“research” paper referred to is the one I linked to, above]

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That is adhering to the ideology to such an extent as to be willing to be cruel to a dementia patient.

Can you imagine? Patient with dementia refers to their correct sex and the ideological driven healthcare professional keeps ‘correcting’ them. This flies in the face of ALL good dementia care, which in every other circumstance guides the caregiver to follow the patients lead. In fact, there are studies on dementia that found playing music from their youth and surrounding them with items from that era calms and reassures patients with dementia. According to “Over the Rainbow” guidelines, the healthcare provider ought to insisting that the year is 2025, not 1945 as the patient believes. Nice.

There is no low bar that genderists wouldn’t go lower.

MarieDeGournay · 19/12/2025 09:58

Heartbroken to hear of your experiences, WearyAuldWumman
I've had to fight for some of my elders, but it was patchy - some of them got excellent care, because they went to Hospital A, but another had the misfortunate to go to A&E at Hospital B, and the difference was night and day.

Take heart and take advice from here, DustyWindowsills, and I hope you get the appropriate care your P needs.

I was going to write 'my heart goes out to you' when I realised that that would be the third time I had used the word 'heart' in these few lines.

But I'm going to let my heart overrule writing style, as this is such a painful subject, so -
DustyWindowsills - my heart goes out to you.

DustyWindowsills · 19/12/2025 10:00

@WearyAuldWumman @MarieDeGournay Thanks so much for the good advice and kind thoughts. I'm preparing myself to be uncharacteristically forceful. 🤞🏼

NecessaryScene · 19/12/2025 10:03

That is adhering to the ideology to such an extent as to be willing to be cruel to a dementia patient.

I wonder what their guidelines would be for the hypothetical mirror image-case - a detransitioner who regressed back to a "trans" identity.

Should staff be aware that trans "support networks" can take advantage of this and try to keep their family away? Is it important for staff to ensure that they do not collude with the trans network or other people who may be taking advantage of their dementia to make them into a person they did not want to be?

MyrtleLion · 19/12/2025 10:06

SwirlyGates · 19/12/2025 09:33

I certainly wouldn't. And look what happened with "Rose" Henderson, attending an intimate operation of his colleague who he was in dispute with. I'm not sure whether this was "Rose"s choice, but someone put him there and ignored the other nurse's wishes and privacy.

Show quote history

Rose was originally scheduled to be in the operating theatre for the intimate procedure but was removed before it went ahead. A woman replaced him when the operation happened.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 10:12

DrBlackbird · 19/12/2025 09:46

That is adhering to the ideology to such an extent as to be willing to be cruel to a dementia patient.

Can you imagine? Patient with dementia refers to their correct sex and the ideological driven healthcare professional keeps ‘correcting’ them. This flies in the face of ALL good dementia care, which in every other circumstance guides the caregiver to follow the patients lead. In fact, there are studies on dementia that found playing music from their youth and surrounding them with items from that era calms and reassures patients with dementia. According to “Over the Rainbow” guidelines, the healthcare provider ought to insisting that the year is 2025, not 1945 as the patient believes. Nice.

There is no low bar that genderists wouldn’t go lower.

Show quote history

I fully admit: by this point in the audit I had read a lot of policies. I was beginning to be a bit jaded - there’s only so much nastiness you can respond to before you go a bit numb. But this just seemed so unnecessarily cruel it woke me up again.

If you take a normal person’s emotional response out of it, though, and just analyse it, it’s a really weird and kind of sadly interesting bit of policy.

The “research” it was based on interviewed zero trans people with dementia. It did, however, interview a few carers, and (I think - I would have to double check this) had trans people on the research team. So, we can conclude that this policy isn’t based on what a trans person with dementia has expressed that they want, or what tests have shown are beneficial for trans people with dementia (such as the music study you refer to). What then is the recommendation based on?

I think it’s based on fear. Fear that the young trans researcher has that they themselves will develop dementia, and will forget that they transitioned. Fear that the fact that dementia-induced detransition is a thing (where dementia-induced heterosexuality in gay/lesbian people is not a thing) means that maybe “being trans” is less a immutable characteristic and more a pretence that will fall away if the pretender can’t pretend any more.

All this policy is, to my mind, is a scared person building a wall to keep unwanted evidence out of their own head. It is nothing whatsoever to do with the comfort and wellbeing of the dementia patients themselves.

lcakethereforeIam · 19/12/2025 11:45

It seems pretty solid evidence to support the argument that trans isn't inborn and innate.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 19/12/2025 11:58

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 09:22

This is from Bradford Teaching Hospital’s Trans Equality Policy

p. 27
With some people who are Trans the dementia might cause them to regress to their birth gender. Staff should be aware that families can take advantage of this and try to keep all their Trans support network away. It is important for Staff to ensure that they do not collude with the family or other people who may be taking advantage of someone’s situation (their dementia) to make them into a person they did not want to be. (“Over the Rainbow” – Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans People and Dementia Project, February 2015).

[“research” paper referred to is the one I linked to, above]

Show quote history

Thank you very much. I'm not certain what to make of it – to me, it can be read as shockingly biased against family, and (though a bit ambiguous) seems to ignore the concept of "gender fluidity" and is vague to the point of negligence. What do they think the person with dementia wants? What they wanted 5 or 10 years ago isn't very relevant, is it? What they want now, in terms of name, clothing, cosmetics and so on seems likely to be far more important.

I'm involved in caring for a very elderly relative who is sometimes confused and her wishes, as far as we can understand them, are driving all our choices. When she can choose, we go along with her choice unless it's unrealistic, in which case we explain why.

NebulousSadTimes · 19/12/2025 12:05

PrettyDamnCosmic · 19/12/2025 08:52

No doctor will deliberately misdiagnose a stroke to save the NHS rehab money.

How can you say that? Whether it's saving the NHS money or for some other reason, some people intentionally do not act in the best interests of others, no matter what oaths they have taken.

WearyAuldWumman · 19/12/2025 12:07

DustyWindowsills · 19/12/2025 10:00

@WearyAuldWumman @MarieDeGournay Thanks so much for the good advice and kind thoughts. I'm preparing myself to be uncharacteristically forceful. 🤞🏼

I had to keep pushing for my husband.

At one point, the Charge Nurse complained to me that he was refusing to eat and would have a hypo.

Then he was served his meal - ordinary flat plate and knife and fork; quiche and peas...

I asked why he hadn't been seen by an OT for appropriate utensils. (As well as the other things I have said - ask about OT input for your P.)

Also asked whether he'd been seen by the Diabetes Team. He hadn't.

When the Diabetes Nurse tested him, she found his glucose level was sky high - not unusual in a stroke victim, apparently - even one that's NOT diabetic.

BTW, the Charge Nurse dumped me on some poor sod of a Registrar. The Registrar's response: "Well, now that you've drawn it to our attention..."

Moi: "HELLO! This is the Acute STROKE Ward!"

Next time the Charge Nurse saw me coming in, I heard her muttering "What does she want now?"

Possibly relevant: they gave Dh a cognition test a couple of weeks apart. First time round, he failed 'Normal' by a couple of points. Next time, he passed.

Also...One time I went in and he was speaking gibberish. I thought he'd had another stroke. Nope. UTI, from being dehydrated. The blamed him for not drinking enough water...

Might be worth asking whether they're remembering to check your P for UTIs. Indeed - are they monitoring fluid input and output?

unwashedanddazed · 19/12/2025 12:08

I think the most upsetting aspect of a trans person with dementia is if they've had surgery but are now mentally reverting to their real sex, rather than identifying as the opposite. To have a to deal several times a day with the inexplicable (to them) loss of their genitals is a true horror.

Maybe this is why they try to keep the patient in their acquired identity rather than reality. Only applies to those with full surgical transition though.

Either way, it's all a fucking horror show.

WearyAuldWumman · 19/12/2025 12:16

DustyWindowsills · 19/12/2025 09:11

So sorry to hear this. DM's case is not as bad. On Monday she was transferred from A&E to an acute stroke ward in another hospital (because that's where a bed was available) and now they want rid of her. That much I can understand. To them, she's just a batty old lady who can't look after herself. What we can't impress upon them is that just 5 days ago she was functioning like a person 10 or 20 years younger. To plan for the future, it would be helpful to know, for example, whether she is likely to regain the ability to use a phone or an electric kettle. That is all we need: a realistic prognosis, not one that completely ignores her medical history. I'm baffled by the lack of communication, and have to wonder if it's partly to do with the current junior doctors' strike.

Show quote history

My experience was that the rehab ward was much much better than the Acute Stroke Ward.

Your P should possibly be moved if she's stable, but only to a decent rehab ward in my view.

When my SIL had her stroke, they wanted her out as soon as possible. She got very brief rehab in another hospital. Her DH did more work with her at home.

Her speech came back in hospital, I recall, but I'm still appalled that the hospital staff let her family think that her cognition had gone when it was right side neglect that was the problem. (Either that or they were incompetent and didn't know...or care?)

After I explained about it to my BIL, he and his son swapped sides of the bed - and suddenly SIL was overjoyed to see that her son had travelled down from Scotland to see her.

You might be aware, but with eye neglect, the eye is still working but the brain can't decode what it's seeing.

While I remember - in the Rehab Ward, the main thing they worked on with DH was learning to walk again. However, they also worked with patients on things like card games to work on dexterity and cognition and - when ready - the OT tried to make sure that they could safely boil a kettle and make a cup of tea.

Communication with next of kin wasn't always good, nearly always poor however.

In some cases, they organised a care package, etc. Some patients were transferred into a care home.

ETA Edited as per strike through. Also to say that SIL lost her ability to read and write. Brain simply couldn't decode.

Her husband taught her again at home and then got her onto an adult literacy programme mainly aimed at offenders... The organisation concerned was actually delighted to work with her and she agreed to appear on local telly to speak about it.

oldtiredcyclist · 19/12/2025 12:18

NebulousSadTimes · 19/12/2025 12:05

How can you say that? Whether it's saving the NHS money or for some other reason, some people intentionally do not act in the best interests of others, no matter what oaths they have taken.

Show quote history

Here is a good and chilling example of that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvn4dy8qyo

Guernsey's Medical Specialist Group's buildings

Former Guernsey doctor removed ovaries without consent - tribunal

A tribunal has given Dr Ali Shokouh-Amiri a warning after 24 allegations were proven against him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvn4dy8qyo

NebulousSadTimes · 19/12/2025 12:20

Also...One time I went in and he was speaking gibberish. I thought he'd had another stroke. Nope. UTI, from being dehydrated. The blamed him for not drinking enough water...

A note for anyone visiting stroke or otherwise infirm patients in hospital or care settings, please do what you can to encourage them to drink, it is very often not on the staff's radar, whether that's down to lack of time, care or competence.

I'm so sorry you and your husband went through all that @WearyAuldWumman . One silver lining is that with your experiences you can be of help to others ❤

WearyAuldWumman · 19/12/2025 12:25

NebulousSadTimes · 19/12/2025 12:20

Also...One time I went in and he was speaking gibberish. I thought he'd had another stroke. Nope. UTI, from being dehydrated. The blamed him for not drinking enough water...

A note for anyone visiting stroke or otherwise infirm patients in hospital or care settings, please do what you can to encourage them to drink, it is very often not on the staff's radar, whether that's down to lack of time, care or competence.

I'm so sorry you and your husband went through all that @WearyAuldWumman . One silver lining is that with your experiences you can be of help to others ❤

Thanks, Nebulous.

In Dh's case, they should probably have had him on a drip: at the time, the left hand didn't work at all and the right one shook constantly.

@DustyWindowsills Did a quick Google. Most areas seem to have a Dementia Champion, but this one lists the equivalent as an Elder Care Champion:

https://www.plymouthhospitals.nhs.uk/champions-for-elder-care

NebulousSadTimes · 19/12/2025 12:28

oldtiredcyclist · 19/12/2025 12:18

Here is a good and chilling example of that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvn4dy8qyo

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Fucking astounding.

ProfessorBinturong · 19/12/2025 13:04

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 10:12

I fully admit: by this point in the audit I had read a lot of policies. I was beginning to be a bit jaded - there’s only so much nastiness you can respond to before you go a bit numb. But this just seemed so unnecessarily cruel it woke me up again.

If you take a normal person’s emotional response out of it, though, and just analyse it, it’s a really weird and kind of sadly interesting bit of policy.

The “research” it was based on interviewed zero trans people with dementia. It did, however, interview a few carers, and (I think - I would have to double check this) had trans people on the research team. So, we can conclude that this policy isn’t based on what a trans person with dementia has expressed that they want, or what tests have shown are beneficial for trans people with dementia (such as the music study you refer to). What then is the recommendation based on?

I think it’s based on fear. Fear that the young trans researcher has that they themselves will develop dementia, and will forget that they transitioned. Fear that the fact that dementia-induced detransition is a thing (where dementia-induced heterosexuality in gay/lesbian people is not a thing) means that maybe “being trans” is less a immutable characteristic and more a pretence that will fall away if the pretender can’t pretend any more.

All this policy is, to my mind, is a scared person building a wall to keep unwanted evidence out of their own head. It is nothing whatsoever to do with the comfort and wellbeing of the dementia patients themselves.

Show quote history

I'd have to check back to be absolutely sure, but I'm fairly certain none of the carers were either trans themselves or carers for trans people. So it's absolutely impossible to draw any conclusions from the study - except about the motivations of the researchers.

DrBlackbird · 19/12/2025 13:05

oldtiredcyclist · 19/12/2025 12:18

Here is a good and chilling example of that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvn4dy8qyo

Show quote history

One patient told the hearing in Manchester the removal of her left ovary without her consent "had ruined her life". Another patient, who believed Dr Shokouh-Amiri deliberately removed her ovaries, said it had brought on the menopause prematurely. He faced more than 100 allegations of inappropriate behaviour with 24 instances proven.

Despite that…

The tribunal, which started on 16 January, found the consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist's "fitness to medically practise is not impaired."

If the offences had been against men, would the outcome have been different?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/12/2025 13:17

ProfessorBinturong · 19/12/2025 13:04

I'd have to check back to be absolutely sure, but I'm fairly certain none of the carers were either trans themselves or carers for trans people. So it's absolutely impossible to draw any conclusions from the study - except about the motivations of the researchers.

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I will go with what you say - I read it some time ago and didn’t re-check all the details before posting.

So, no trans people with dementia, and probably no carers of trans people with dementia, in a study of how best to care for trans people with dementia. It’s a study worthy of the Streeting puberty blocker research group.

MyAmpleSheep · 19/12/2025 13:23

DrBlackbird · 19/12/2025 13:05

One patient told the hearing in Manchester the removal of her left ovary without her consent "had ruined her life". Another patient, who believed Dr Shokouh-Amiri deliberately removed her ovaries, said it had brought on the menopause prematurely. He faced more than 100 allegations of inappropriate behaviour with 24 instances proven.

Despite that…

The tribunal, which started on 16 January, found the consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist's "fitness to medically practise is not impaired."

If the offences had been against men, would the outcome have been different?

Show quote history

Good lord, can you imagine? If a man had his testicles removed without consent the doctor would be sent to prison!

CohensDiamondTeeth · 19/12/2025 13:33

oldtiredcyclist · 19/12/2025 12:18

Here is a good and chilling example of that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yvn4dy8qyo

Show quote history

Absolutely terrifying!

And @DrBlackbird's quote from the tribunal. This is insanity, when I read things like this it just hammers home that for some people, women just don't count as actual human beings. Fitness to medically practise is not impaired?! Aye as long as he isn't let loose anywhere near a female patient! Ffs!

"The tribunal, which started on 16 January, found the consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist's "fitness to medically practise is not impaired."