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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex Matters - Hampstead Heath Ponds -

720 replies

SexRealismBeliefs · 15/12/2025 18:42

Sex Matters, a charity that campaigns for single-sex rights, will argue that the City of London Corporation is breaching equality law by allowing trans women to use Kenwood Ladies’ Pond on Hampstead Heath.

Hearing this Wednesday.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

Hampstead women’s pond sued over transgender access

Sex Matters claims that the City of London Corporation is defending a policy that defies the Supreme Court ruling on single-sex services

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

OP posts:
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28
Another2Cats · 01/02/2026 11:05

JoanOgden · 31/01/2026 20:40

I don't actually think the current legal situation works post-SC judgment (of course it didn't work before it, either). I think leisure facilities and associations should be allowed to set their own admittance policies in relation to sex/gender... they should be allowed to be single-sex only but they should also be allowed to admit by gender identity if they want to, and are clear about it.

(Totally different situation to e.g. prisons where women only really has to mean women only, because women have no choice as to whether they go to prison or not, whereas they do have a choice about whether they join the WI or swim in the women's pool.)

Sorry to quote you twice, I wanted to make a second, separate, point.

"...whereas they do have a choice about whether they join the WI"

Have you never considered that perhaps there might be some reason why women might want a female only space?

How about self determination? That is, the power to make decisions for yourself.

The role of women in society has, historically, been disproportionately determined by others, that is, men. For this reason it is particularly important that women, without men - the ‘others’ who did all the previous determining - are able to decide matters of importance themselves.

Women need spaces of their own in order to self-determine, but also, by the act of creating spaces in which to be inaccessible, women are also exercising self-determination.

Self determination particularly justifies exclusion in spaces where there is the chance for women to talk and raise consciousness. This allows women to talk openly about and debate issues of interest from a female view without the presence of men (rather like here on MN).

Indeed, it has been part of the WI’s constitution since at least 1948 to
“[p]rovide for the fuller education of countrywomen in citizenship, in public questions both national and international, …”

The latest constitution puts it this way: “to advance the education of women and girls for the public benefit in all areas including (without limitation):
(i) local, national and international issues of political and social importance;”
.

Women also have an interest in respite from men; a break from male attitudes, expectations and behaviours. Women and men are generally socialised very differently, and this leads to differences in the average behaviour of women and men, which colours their interactions. Women are required to deal with these male attitudes, expectations and behaviours in mixed-sex spaces. Women-only spaces can provide an important respite from this.

There is no reason to think that transitioning (which does not necessarily involve hormones or surgery) would switch someone from demonstrating male-typical behaviour patterns to female-typical patterns. If trans-identifying men will bring some or all of these male-typical attitudes, expectations and behaviours into these spaces then that is, on its face, reason to exclude trans-identifying men from those spaces.

This rationale does not depend on it being the case that a particular male person would in fact bring male-socialised behaviours into a space. It is enough that women have to manage this possibility when men are around. Women-only spaces provide respite not just from certain sorts of behaviours, but from having to make contingency plans about what to do in light of certain sorts of behaviours - from being on guard.
.

Finally, it’s relevant that women established the WI themselves. Women funded, volunteered at, and ran the WI as services by women for women for the last 110 years. If other groups may benefit from access to such spaces it does not give them the automatic right to be included; such groups should do the same work that the women of the WI have done for the last 110 years and establish such spaces for themselves.
.

Also, don't forget that the WI is a single-sex charity and they would need to change their constitution to allow men to join. But they couldn't just limit it to trans-identifying men, they would have to include all men.

It is perhaps illustrative of how any suggestion of such a change might go down with members that they didn't even think of going with that option but simply gave up on the idea of becoming a mixed-sex association.

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:12

ConstanzeMozart · 01/02/2026 10:51

And why would the Ladies' Pond need 'a high level of exclusionary security'? Is it because you think women will be rowdy and present a threat to peace and security? Or because if a man was challenged he would get threatening and require a burly bouncer or several to sort him out?

I mean, who knows. It would be great if it didn't. But there has been such a huge amount of bad feeling over this - you only have to look at Reddit to see many posts just as vehement and emotional as on here, only from the opposite angle. And the pond issue has been co-opted into the whole wider "culture wars", which seem to prompt extremist views and entrenched antithetical positions. I hate it, but here we are.

ConstanzeMozart · 01/02/2026 11:16

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:12

I mean, who knows. It would be great if it didn't. But there has been such a huge amount of bad feeling over this - you only have to look at Reddit to see many posts just as vehement and emotional as on here, only from the opposite angle. And the pond issue has been co-opted into the whole wider "culture wars", which seem to prompt extremist views and entrenched antithetical positions. I hate it, but here we are.

I'm finding your faux-helpless 'oh well, this is where we are' stance unconvincing, TBH.

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 11:40

Melarus · 01/02/2026 10:36

Ok, sorry. But the basic point remains the same, as I said in my post at 10.07am yesterday. Either you have a sanctuary with a high level of exclusionary security, or you have a facility that is open to all, with some people choosing to self-exclude.

And yet as soon as some women try to enter the men’s area (Man Friday) the police turn up.

cant you see the contradictions in your own argument?

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 11:41

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:12

I mean, who knows. It would be great if it didn't. But there has been such a huge amount of bad feeling over this - you only have to look at Reddit to see many posts just as vehement and emotional as on here, only from the opposite angle. And the pond issue has been co-opted into the whole wider "culture wars", which seem to prompt extremist views and entrenched antithetical positions. I hate it, but here we are.

It’s not in the slightest way extremist and entrenched to want the law to be obeyed and enforced.

the cohort that finds the law awkward and in the way of their goals should properly campaign to have it changed. That would at least be honest.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/02/2026 11:44

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 11:41

It’s not in the slightest way extremist and entrenched to want the law to be obeyed and enforced.

the cohort that finds the law awkward and in the way of their goals should properly campaign to have it changed. That would at least be honest.

Edited

except when it might make a tiny number of men sad & angry apparently

then its the most extremist position ever

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 11:49

I am further amused that someone would think this site is a mirror of the vehemence and misogyny to be found on reddit. Truly hilarious.

trans Reddit is in equal parts “burn JKR, she’s a witch”, “the justices of the Supreme Court don’t know the law and are corrupt”, “I’m too ashamed of my male body to leave my bedroom, how does my cock look in this lady underwear”, and “burn JKR she’s a witch and Faulkner (sic) with her”. Along with a dose of “help me I’m suicidal over my lack of tits”.

OK, not the bit about “how does my cock look in this lacy underwear” but only because selfies have been banned because people laugh at “misuse” them.

There is no sign of any competence, understanding or intellectual ability anywhere there, with a single notable exception.

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 11:40

And yet as soon as some women try to enter the men’s area (Man Friday) the police turn up.

cant you see the contradictions in your own argument?

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/02/2026 11:58

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

yes we know, you've ready said you're quite happy to bin off the women who cannot for religious or cultural or any other reason use a mixed pond in favour of placating the demanding men who don't like to be told no

MyAmpleSheep · 01/02/2026 12:00

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

My point being that enforcement is no issue at present, so your compassion for the women who will be forced to eject (oh… the vapours, where are my salts, Natalie) some men are perhaps a little unnecessary.

MarieDeGournay · 01/02/2026 12:07

As I've said before in response to Melarus, I don't like the idea of giving in to bullies, such as biological males who insist on using facilities that they know they are not allowed to use, and where they know they will cause distress and concern. In fact, it's on record that they may insist on using women-only spaces precisely in order to cause distress and concern.

I have a feeling that the trans juggernaut is running out of whatever it runs on. Legal decisions are restoring some balance to rights, opinion polls suggest that the general public isn't 100% on board, and anecdotal evidence is that the next generation of young people growing up are not very receptive to the excesses of gender ideology.

So hopefully, after a period of difficulty and discord while we stand up to the bullies, the unreasonable (and sometimes illegal) demands and behaviour of a small number of misogynistic TRAs will fade away.

Trans people should have the same human rights as everyone else, but no unjustifiable 'extras' -
To transpeople: their rights and no more.
To women: our rights and no less.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 01/02/2026 12:19

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

The large cohort of gay men who use the Male Pond for hook ups won't be happy to have it converted to a Mixed Pool..

Namelessnelly · 01/02/2026 12:25

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

But won’t that put males with a trans identity in danger? If they’re afraid to use male spaces because males will attack them, how will them sharing mixed sex spaces with those same males be any better? Surely the males will attack the just as easily in a mixed sex space?

Melarus · 01/02/2026 12:25

V nice post, Marie de Gournay, I hope you're right 💜

Greyskybluesky · 01/02/2026 13:21

I've said it before (on this very thread a few pages back!) and I'll say it again.

The pools are the perfect example of what we want and how things should be (in this world that has apparently 'moved on'...)

A women's pond for women only.
A men's pond for men only.
A mixed pond for everyone.

The pools already exist like this. No conversion work is needed, no extra space is needed, there are zero costs involved. It's all already there.

But it's still not acceptable to some people. WHY?

(Spoiler: I know why)

FallenSloppyDead2 · 01/02/2026 13:28

The world did indeed move on, and then it realised that the transwoman umbrella included fully intact males, fetishists, autogynaephiles, predators, voyeurs and exhibitionists and it did a swift reverse, as evidenced by successive YouGov polling from 2018 onwards.

MarieDeGournay · 01/02/2026 13:55

Melarus · 01/02/2026 12:25

V nice post, Marie de Gournay, I hope you're right 💜

Happy to agree on that, Melarus!💜

Imdunfer · 01/02/2026 14:26

Melarus · 01/02/2026 10:36

Ok, sorry. But the basic point remains the same, as I said in my post at 10.07am yesterday. Either you have a sanctuary with a high level of exclusionary security, or you have a facility that is open to all, with some people choosing to self-exclude.

The high level of exclusionary security will be required only until these male bullies learn that the security will be used.

Your alternative is give in to the bullies.

This is what women are taught to do from little girls, to appease. It's time that ended.

Imdunfer · 01/02/2026 14:34

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:12

I mean, who knows. It would be great if it didn't. But there has been such a huge amount of bad feeling over this - you only have to look at Reddit to see many posts just as vehement and emotional as on here, only from the opposite angle. And the pond issue has been co-opted into the whole wider "culture wars", which seem to prompt extremist views and entrenched antithetical positions. I hate it, but here we are.

"The pond issue" has been co-opted because it's such a perfect example of what the issues are.

From way back in time there was a men's pond, a women's pond and a mixed pond because there is a perfect set up of 3 ponds.

Then along came some trans rights activists insisting that obviously male bodied people should be able to use the women's ponds.

I've no doubt that at that time some discreet trans people were dipping in the women's pond upsetting no-one.

Then along came the activists who wanted to scream and shout about their rights and force gender realists to validate their "femininity" and metaphorically and physically wave their dicks around and they ruined it for everyone.

BrokenSunflowers · 01/02/2026 14:42

I saw ‘genitalia inspection’ card was played - as a reminder we are talking men in swimsuits here….

Keeptoiletssafe · 01/02/2026 15:57

Imdunfer · 01/02/2026 14:34

"The pond issue" has been co-opted because it's such a perfect example of what the issues are.

From way back in time there was a men's pond, a women's pond and a mixed pond because there is a perfect set up of 3 ponds.

Then along came some trans rights activists insisting that obviously male bodied people should be able to use the women's ponds.

I've no doubt that at that time some discreet trans people were dipping in the women's pond upsetting no-one.

Then along came the activists who wanted to scream and shout about their rights and force gender realists to validate their "femininity" and metaphorically and physically wave their dicks around and they ruined it for everyone.

Edited

The next stage, which I have evidence of in recent court cases in non domestic toilet provision, is of men who aren’t transwomen, saying they are transwomen as their excuse for being in women’s provision, which they use for voyeurism or sexual abuse.

They have been charged with a male name and claim they are a women just for the short time they are in the toilet room when they get caught. One man did change the pitch of his voice when trying to evade police.

Brings a new meaning to how can you tell the difference.

AnSolas · 01/02/2026 16:57

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:12

I mean, who knows. It would be great if it didn't. But there has been such a huge amount of bad feeling over this - you only have to look at Reddit to see many posts just as vehement and emotional as on here, only from the opposite angle. And the pond issue has been co-opted into the whole wider "culture wars", which seem to prompt extremist views and entrenched antithetical positions. I hate it, but here we are.

Its always sold as some thing which is hard to enforce yet the current legislation give the offender a clear choice and ownership of the choice.

Police report and a charge of sex offending with a 100% private prosecutions policy by the Board.

Clear notices of the facts.

Eg. That any male in the female pond area (or female in the male pond area) will cause alarm and distress etc ... and if found will have the police called and will be charged with sex offending.

Add a map to the mixed sex pond so the user has access to a lawful alternative.

Then the police sort out ID and the Board action if there is an arrest.

Simple solution.

No big fuss needed.

Non-sex Offenders will opt to use the risk free mixed sex areas.

Sex Offenders get to risk a nice criminal record.

borntobequiet · 01/02/2026 17:01

Funny how it really wasn’t hard to enforce in all the decades before men suddenly started saying they were really women and the powers that be lost their collective minds and believed such nonsense.

Datun · 01/02/2026 17:03

borntobequiet · 01/02/2026 17:01

Funny how it really wasn’t hard to enforce in all the decades before men suddenly started saying they were really women and the powers that be lost their collective minds and believed such nonsense.

Totally.

Any man attempting to enter a female toilet would have the weight of public opinion grabbing him by the scruff of the neck.

I have no doubt that we will be seeing that again, although it's taking longer than anyone thought

AnSolas · 01/02/2026 17:13

Melarus · 01/02/2026 11:56

I'm arguing for mixed ponds all round! Thus, no need for the cops.

Or magic solution:

Men no matter what they want to call themselves take ownership of their (moral) duty to be law abiding members of the society they live in and follow the laws about staying out of womens single sex spaces.

Nobody is saying that people should be allowed do 100mph passed schools just because someone decided that was a reasoned choice and there was no police around to stop it happening.