Pushing back against the so-called Nordic Model of sex work

[SnugFinch]

Hi. I'm aware that my views might not be the most popular, but I am posting here in good faith.

Many of you know that Ash Regan has been campaigning to get sex work legislation in place which follows the neo-abolitionist model, or Nordic Model. This so-called Nordic Model claims that it will punish buyers of sex work, while not criminalising sellers, and that this will benefit sex workers and stop sex trafficking.

However, this is untrue. By criminalising buyers, it ensures that the only people who will buy sex are criminals who don't care about breaking the law. And because sex workers have a smaller client pool, they have no choice but to put themselves at the mercy of these criminals, and can end up suffering violence as a result.

This so-called Nordic Model has been law in the island of Ireland for nearly a decade now, and it has made things worse for the women involved, and it has done nothing to stop sex trafficking, as the facts in this article (and the testimony of a former sex worker) prove.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2025/02/07/on-problems-with-the-nordic-model-of-prostitution/

Ash Regan's bill has been delayed for the moment, but it hasn't been defeated. There is a growing worry that what happened in Ireland could happen in Scotland. And it could extend to England and Wales as well.

Feminists should want to end violence against all women. So why is there support for the Nordic Model, which has proven to be so hazardous to female sex workers?

I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.

What would happen to a care worker if they disregarded H&S regs? If they were employed they might face disciplinary action. If they were self employed they might be fined (I guess). They wouldn't be arrested.

In Britain today and in every Nordic Model country women are arrested for working as a prostitute with another woman. It's called 'brothel-keeping'. It would make more sense for women to be fined for NOT working with another woman.

People who believe in the Nordic Model aren't interested in 'harm reduction'. They think that it is better to eliminate prostitution. They're always going on about another reason we should eliminate it, but when you point out to them that the Nordic Model doesn't eliminate or even decrease the amount of prostitution they seem very nonchalant about it.

Their attitude is that if it's not enforced what can you expect? Enforcement can mean two different things. If you read the review of the Nordic Model legislation in Ireland published about a year ago it is clear that the police have been very busy. Lots of men were arrested, fewer men charged with an offense and not many at all convicted.

Supporters of the Nordic Model in Ireland didn't blame the police, they didn't say that the police have been inactive, they said that the police may need extra powers. This is the other meaning of enforcement. Do people in Ireland want to give the police more powers though?

If you think of a country like China where the police have many powers not available to the police in Britain or Ireland, have they managed to eliminate it? No. In America where both prostitutes and their clients are arrested, have they managed to eliminate it? No.

Criminalizing it doesn't help with H&S. It just makes it worse. The main protection for prostitutes is condoms. Traditional prostitutes don't come into contact with semen, unlike some Chinese and Thai masseurs who use their hands to bring their clients to orgasm - 'hand relief' or a 'happy ending'. Thai massage establishments have proliferated in Nordic Model Sweden, with most of them offering some kind of sexual service.

There's an article from the Irish website Gript which makes nonsense of this claim that:

"Supporters of the Nordic Model in Ireland didn't blame the police, they didn't say that the police have been inactive, they said that the police may need extra powers."

From the article:

"The Gardai have a dedicated anti-prostitution unit in place, though successful convictions appear to be almost non-existent. This probably should be a source of some confusion to our politicians given that this one website lists thousands of people and venues across Ireland where prostitution is taking place. Perhaps the Gardai are simply unaware of the largest sex-for-sale site in Ireland, run by a family of convicted brothel keepers."

The article can be read in full here:

https://gript.ie/mcguirk-wheres-political-outrage-about-escortireland/

As usual, the pimp lobby propagandists on this thread are spouting cherry-picked rubbish to support this vile trade. In Ireland, they are saying that lack of enforcement is the issue.

What would happen to a care worker if they disregarded H&S regs?

Transmission or contraction of infectious disease to worker or service user, immediate injury to worker or service user, minor cumulative damage leading to occupational disease later for the worker, an accident or near-miss in the workplace...

Women in prostitution are engaging with sex acts, with men they don't necessarily find attractive, at the men's convenience. All the H&S rules about manual handling and avoiding injury apply double, nay triple, when the customer has access to the interior of your body

You also said:
"The main protection for prostitutes is condoms. Traditional prostitutes don't come into contact with semen"

Are women in prostitution supplied with magic condoms that don't break or slip off? Do they never ever encounter men who try to sneak the condom off illicitly?

Additionally, are you unaware that herpes, genital warts and HPV are spread by skin to skin contact outside the area covered by the condom? Condoms only cover the penis, so that's a lot of skin remaining, innit?

Almost all cervical cancers are caused by strains of HPV, so this isn't something to ignore.

So many words!

Men who buy sexual services are trash human beings. You can enable them if you want to, but I will never ever be complicit in the sales of humans.

That is it. That’s the difference in our principles.
Men who buy sexual services are disgusting trash who should be on a register, so that partners can check to see if they should be swerved.

I don't want to enable them. I want to do the exact opposite of that. HomericEpithet today mentioned 'men who try to sneak the condom off illicitly'. There are men who want to do that, there are men who want to rape a woman without a condom and there are men who want to kill women.

All these men are enabled by a system where women who want to make money out of prostitution are forced to work alone. If they try to work with another woman in the flat they will be arrested. That happens in Britain today and it happens in every Nordic Model country. Despite what they say about 'shifting the burden of criminality'.

The Nordic Model doesn't do what you think it does. It doesn't stop or even decrease the amount of prostitution happening. It does change the circumstances in which it happens - for the worse.

You might think that it makes life difficult for the type of men that you hate but you can't even get that right. It makes it easier for the punters, especially the abusive ones (I know you think they are all abusive but they aren't all the same).

So you think that I am 'complicit in the sales of humans' do you? This kind of daft thinking doesn't help anyone. There are ways to reduce the total amount of prostitution in society, sensible ways that will work, sensible ways that people like Emily Kenway and Hilary Kinnell advocate. People who know what they are talking about. People who know about modern slavery in all its forms.

But, oh no, people like you think the best thing is to link prostitution to slavery, attempt your "abolition" and fail to achieve anything.

I didn’t want to come back to this thread. Thinking about the women who have to have unwanted sex is just too much right now.

But I looked at the posters. It is incredible how committed and persistent men who want to circumvent enthusiastic consent are. I know why women wanting to prevent harm to other women are persistent. But all this effort to have unwanted sex! Put that energy into being a safe, attractive, kind, funny man and women would be more likely to have sex with you without payment. It makes it seem like the drive is the lack of consent, not the sex.

AR's bill is not well supported given strong evidence that it would cause harm to sex workers and be difficult and expensive to try and enforce. The Gov has also raised concerns with the bill previously stating that if it passes stage 1 significant amendments will be needed and it seems unlikely she would have time to do this (deadline is May, any incomplete bills then go straight to the trash).

AR's response? "waa waa anyone who doesn't support my bill is siding with a pimp or trafficker!"

This is why AR isn't well respected by the public or fellow politicians. She can't respond to criticism against her bill with evidence, name calling is all she has.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/snp-msps-accused-of-siding-with-pimps-and-sex-traffickers-as-prostitution-bill-h-5HjdRFh_2/

Concerns re the spread of HIV have been raised.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25792854.hiv-concerns-raised-ash-regans-prostitution-bill/?ref=rss (paywalled, use archive below)

https://archive.ph/dVfA0

https://www.instagram.com/p/DT7vEeojVmI/ (ScotandForDecrim's post on Instagram)

"Concerns have been raised by HIV organisations, academics and advocacy groups that <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/dVfA0/www.heraldscotland.com/topics/ash-regan/?ref=au" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ash Regan’s proposed Unbuyable Bill could undermine Scotland’s goal of ending new HIV transmissions by 2030.
A briefing was sent to MSPs this week by Scotland for Decrim, in collaboration with the National AIDS Trust, Waverley Care and academic researchers.
It argues that adopting the so-called Nordic Model, as set out in Ms Regan’s Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill, would increase the risk of HIV transmission."

The Nordic Model, what AR's member bill is proposing for Scotland, is opposed by many local and international health/HIV orgs including UNAIDs, The WHO, HIV Scotland and STOPAIDs. They all support complete decrim which is currently used in NZ, Belgium and parts of Australia.

One reason given is that the Nordic Model does not stop adults buying or selling sex, they just take extra precautions to avoid being caught which can put the sex worker in extra harm. example- less opportunity to vet clients, clients demanding the meeting takes place in a more secluded location and condoms being carried and used less.

Stage 1 voting is expected for early Feb.

What evidence for the general lack of support for AR? I see no evidence. I do see the Scottish Government do what they do continually which is ignore the rights of women and chilfdren, and ignore the voices of those that speak up for them. Excepting those organisations they fund, and their handmaidens.

Well given her reactions it doesn't seem to be progressing the way she wants it to. I see a lot of foot stamping and accusations from her "everyone who disagrees with me is siding with a pimp or trafficker!". And btw if she is making unfounded accusations against MSPs then another Parliament ban for her might be needed.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/snp-msps-accused-of-siding-with-pimps-and-sex-traffickers-as-prostitution-bill-h-5HjdRFh_2/

Her bill is a mess and if it passes stage 1 voting significant changes will be needed to be made before the stage 3 vote. Time is short- Parliament breaks up in May.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7404jlk3ezo

Crown Office have said her bill would be unenforceable. Both N Ire and ROI Govs have said the Nordic Model has not "reduced demand" in their countries. Despite Police Scotland "supporting the principle" of the bill, they have also raised concerns about the massive expense trying to enforce it would cost (it's money which hasn't been budgeted for and it will need to be taken out of something else).
https://www.thenational.scot/news/25481086.crown-office-warns-ash-regans-sex-work-bill-unenforceable/

N. Ire has seen ONE conviction for buying sex in a decade since their law was introduced. oh dear
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-67802849

Recently, 120 sex workers signed an open letter asking MSPs to vote against her bill:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25753553.plea-120-sex-workers-msps-vote-regan-bill/

"Excepting those organisations they fund, and their handmaidens."
"ignore the rights of women and chilfdren"

"handmaidens" there you're doing the exact same as Ash Regan- resort to name calling or use emotive language ("they're ignoring the rights of women and children!!") instead of calm and rational debating with evidence.

It's not over yet but it's not looking good for her bill. Hopefully it will fail then as soon as May comes (and constituents can vote) that will be the last we hear of her.

I notice you ignore my point about the roe of the Scottish government in rolling back women’s rights whilst repeating the arguments of the lobbyists for “ sex work” Who either are, or side with pimps or traffickers.

Claiming someone is a pimp or trafficker is a serious accusation.

Since it's illegal to be a pimp or trafficker if you have any evidence of this happening I hope you have passed it onto law enforcement.

Sorry, I think I must be missing a bit of the jigsaw somewhere; can somebody explain why criminalising the punters but not the sex workers means that more than one woman can't work together?

The Nordic Model claims to shift the burden of criminality from sex workers to punters, from women to men. It claims to criminalise punters and decriminalise sex workers. That's not the reality though.

In Britain today it is not illegal to be a prostitute but certain things are illegal. It is illegal for two or more women to work together. It's called brothel-keeping. If the Nordic Model comes to Britain that won't change. Prostitutes won't be decriminalised because it wasn't illegal to be a prostitute to begin with but it will continue to be illegal for women to work together.

In Ireland they doubled the penalties for brothel-keeping when they brought in the Nordic Model in 2017. Women go to prison for brothel-keeping but no men have gone to prison for paying for sex. So I don't know how that is supposed to be equality. Some people call it the Equality Model but that doesn't make sense.

It seems that politicians who bring in the Nordic Model want two things. They want to stamp out prostitution by any means necessary. They also want to not arrest prostitutes. These two things are contradictory. They solve the dilemma by making their futile attempt to wipe out prostitution and keeping the idea of decriminalising sex workers for their propaganda.

I bet if the penalty for buying sex was life imprisonment, almost all of these men would soon stop after the first couple of successful prosecutions.

in Scotland sex workers are already committing a crime if they work together in the same premises (even if they don't work at the same time or the same day). Ash Regan's bill if passed would not changed this. Therefore it is inaccurate for her and her supporters to say the bill will "decriminalise" sex workers.

"I bet if the penalty for buying sex was life imprisonment, almost all of these men would soon stop after the first couple of successful prosecutions."

Well first you need to get successful prosecutions. N. Ireland has had ONE client conviction in a decade since they introduced the Nordic Model. Turns out it's very difficult to get convictions- the police can't see through the walls of sex worker's homes and sex workers generally don't want their clients convicted and thus won't testify against them. Despite what AR said, for client convictions to happen in Scotland sex workers will need to go to court to testify.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-67802849

Ash Regan also wants a prison sentence for payment of sex. There is article after article about how Scotland's overcrowded prisons are at breaking point and prisoners are being let out early. Yet AR thinks there is going to be space for consenting adults who pay for sex. She didn't know what prostitution "going underground" means so she IMO she doesn't seem very clued up on how things actually work.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scotlands-jails-breaking-point-prison-033000466.html

spectator.com/article/ash-regans-prostitution-blunder/

Christinapple

Can you confirm are you or have you ever bought sexual services?

Christinapple
Can you confirm are you or have you ever bought sexual services?

@Tpu What does this have to do with anything?
Facts remain true regardless of who points them out.

Why are you asking this question, instead of debunking what @Christinapple said? Maybe because you cannot debunk the truth?

Maybe because you want to peddle the usual, tired, divisive narrative whereby the only people who disagree with you are the villains who want to hire or exploit sex workers?

Maybe because this gives you a convenient escape hatch, an excuse to delude yourself that you don't need to address the points raised because only villains raise them?

Men beautifully making my point

And yes @YetAnotherDude it does make a difference if you or PP are punters. Because we can safely assume that your concern about the Nordic model has at least a whiff of self interest.

And also that a man willing to have sex with a woman who is only consenting because of money isn't centreing women's safety and welfare, no matter what he says.

Pretty fucking obviously.

@MrsTerryPratchett Thank you for confirming my point "pretty f obviously", to use your very words.
This is why it is pointless to even answer your question: not only because it is irrelevant, but because your mind is already made up and you and many like you here have shown you are completely allergic to facts and evidence.

Your argument is a bit like saying that only junkies and narcotraffickers would disagree with giving heavy sentences to those smoking a joint.

Let's assume for a second, just for the sake of argument, that you are right.
Let's assume for a second that the only men who disagree with the Nordic model are despicable men who either want to buy sex or want to exploit sex workers.

Regardless, is it or is not true that only 1 man has been arrested in Northen Ireland for buying sex?

Is it or is it not true that the Nordic model still criminalises sex workers who want to work together?

Is it or is not true that the very sex workers complain that this aspect of the Nordic model (and of the legislation in England) makes sex work more dangerous?

Is it or is not true that advocates of the Nordic model have never given a flying fig about this?

Truth hurts. You will probably feel angry and triggered and furious because these inconvenient truths challenge your ideological preconceptions.
I get it.
By all means, insult me all you like, if it makes you feel any better.
Done?
Wanna hurl some more insults? Be my guest.

But now that you have got that out of your system, can you please answer the questions above? Thank you!

Also, what about the sex workers themselves?
We have seen many cases of sex workers complaining against the Nordic model.
Can you point to how many sex workers instead support ity?
What does this tell you?

Again: very simple, factual questions. Take a deep breath. Feel free to insult me again. There... Better now? Now can you answer? Thank you!

Your argument is a bit like saying that only junkies and narcotraffickers would disagree with giving heavy sentences to those smoking a joint.

Not really, but would you agree that junkies and drug dealers might have a different view on this from someone who has lost a family member due to drug use?

If you're arguing about drugs, it's useful to know what your personal interest is in the subject (if any). Same for prostitution. I would expect a pimp to have a different view from a relative of a prostitute who was killed by a punter. So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what your personal interest in the subject is (if any).

If you have never had any involvement in the buying or selling of sex, then just say so.

Punter says 'what'?

@OldCrone

If you're arguing about drugs, it's useful to know what your personal interest is in the subject (if any). Same for prostitution.

To an extent. But this would also require the open-mindedness to accept that some individuals may simply be interested in which policies work and which don't, without a specific personal interest. And it would require the open-mindedness to accept that not everyone who dares disagree must necessarily be driven by dark, hidden, ulterior motives. Most people on this forum have NOT shown such open-mindedness.

Do you not agree that painting all those who dare disagree as villains, and using that as a convenient excuse to dodge inconvenient questions, is intellectually dishonest?

@MrsTerryPratchett Punter says 'what'?

Thank you for confirming my previous point in full! Now that you have insulted me, can you please answer the questions?
It might be useful to remind you that plenty of women, some of whom are sex workers and some aren't, say the very same things. Will you insult them, too?

I mean, why do you not answer?
Why do facts terrify you so much?

If facts are on your side, why don't you explain how come Northern Ireland saw only one man convicted?
Why don't you explain why the Nordic model criminalises the sex workers who work together, and why sex workers themselves say this makes their work more dangerous?
Why don't you explain how many sex workers welcome the Nordic model vs how many oppose it?
Why don't you explain what the evidence is that the Nordic model has reduced demand while making sex work safer?

I am all ears, but your silence is deafening. I wonder why...

I don't play chess with pigeons.

And again, the level of engagement by certain men on this subject, when they don't care about women's safety anywhere else is telling.

Just admit you don't actually care about women. It will be liberating.

@YetAnotherDude
I haven't painted you as a villain. I've simply asked you several times what your personal interest is in this issue, but you have declined to answer. Why is that?