Pushing back against the so-called Nordic Model of sex work

[SnugFinch]

Hi. I'm aware that my views might not be the most popular, but I am posting here in good faith.

Many of you know that Ash Regan has been campaigning to get sex work legislation in place which follows the neo-abolitionist model, or Nordic Model. This so-called Nordic Model claims that it will punish buyers of sex work, while not criminalising sellers, and that this will benefit sex workers and stop sex trafficking.

However, this is untrue. By criminalising buyers, it ensures that the only people who will buy sex are criminals who don't care about breaking the law. And because sex workers have a smaller client pool, they have no choice but to put themselves at the mercy of these criminals, and can end up suffering violence as a result.

This so-called Nordic Model has been law in the island of Ireland for nearly a decade now, and it has made things worse for the women involved, and it has done nothing to stop sex trafficking, as the facts in this article (and the testimony of a former sex worker) prove.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2025/02/07/on-problems-with-the-nordic-model-of-prostitution/

Ash Regan's bill has been delayed for the moment, but it hasn't been defeated. There is a growing worry that what happened in Ireland could happen in Scotland. And it could extend to England and Wales as well.

Feminists should want to end violence against all women. So why is there support for the Nordic Model, which has proven to be so hazardous to female sex workers?

I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.

I have more awareness than you do of the real effects of prostitution.

Where does this awareness come from @JennyShaw ?

What is your experience of prostitution which gives you this insight?

I can't say I'm surprised this question is being dodged.

@Dolly96 I said specifically that whether independent, trafficked, or employed by an agency, all women in prostitution are vulnerable to danger.

This is a self-evident banality which I have never denied nor minimised. So what does it have to do with anything? You talk as if I had denied that prostitution is dangerous. I have not!!

Ever heard of the SAAFE forum? It's a forum by and for sex workers which has been around for a couple of decades https://saafe.info/main/index.php

My opinion is irrelevant, I am a despicable person, a pimp, a trafficker, and all other kinds of insults the lovely ladies on this forum love to hurl at me. Fine.
So let's do this: ignore me, but why don't you go on that forum and share your views with the women who do this on a daily basis and who maaaaaybe know a tad more than you about it? Deal?
Come on, go and tell them that they shouldn't be doing it, that their choice is not free even if they think it is, etc.

I suspect you might not like what they have to say. Because they tend to be the women who dare disagree with you. Eg https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/25/if-you-really-care-about-the-safety-of-sex-workers-like-me-let-us-make-our-own-choices

https://www.instagram.com/p/DTa6klhjax7/

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25753553.plea-120-sex-workers-msps-vote-regan-bill/

120 sex workers sign an open letter to MSPs asking them to vote against Ash Regan's bill. Instagram link is Soctland4Decrim's post.

Also there are delays in progressing the bill, AR is unhappy (not news, she's always complaining about something)

news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-government-playing-procedural-games-to-delay-prostitution-bill-claims-ash-regan

@CharlieParley You had said that

Both the European Court of Human Rights (2024) and the Ontario Superior Court of Justice (2023) examined research and data provided as evidence for this claim and thoroughly rejected it because none of these papers could show any causation between the Nordic Model law on prostitution and the harms people in prostitution experience.

And I asked you to clarify what you mean, because courts opine on whether something is legal, constitutional, etc. They do NOT opine on whether a certain policy is effective, nor on whether policy A is better than policy B.
Since this is quite the biggie, could you please clarify? Thank you.

PS The aforementioned SAAFE forum has a thread, started in April 2025, on the Nordic model in the UK
https://saafe.info/main/politics-and-academicmedia-queries/nordic-model-in-the-uk/

Let's just say that the women who work in the industry and post there tend NOT to support it

From the thread:

I deliberately chose this profession for its many positive aspects, including good income, part-time work, choosing my own hours to fit with children, as well as the job satisfaction of helping people.

I will point out that my client's needs are more than pure sex and most of my clients are single. Loneliness is a common problem among them.

I see people with many psychological problems and there is a crisis in men's mental health. I have particularly helped men with issues of cancer, loneliness, body-image, grief, and men who have been victims of violence

Also:

that's what happens in sweden: sex workers don't report shyte because they find themselves with a police car permanently parked outside their door checking out who comes in and out, asking her clients for their ID, no one wants that so swedish sex workers simply don't go to the police as they risk loosing their job.

“Its many positive aspects” - don’t make me laugh!

Those comments sound like they are written by pimps. If it was so positive, everyone would be doing it, wouldn’t they?

@catontheironingboard Have you even had a look at the website? Do you really think that a website with advice on how sex workers can stay safe and avoid pimps is... written by pimps?

Your comment doesn't follow.
That one sex worker finds that the job has many advantages for her does not mean that the job is for everyone, nor does it follow that everyone would find the same advantages in that job. Typical comment which shows either bad faith or complete lack of text comprehension skills.

By the same logic, if I say that my job offers me some good advantages which are very valuable for me now, it doesn't mean that everyone should be doing my job!!!!

@catontheironingboard Why don't you accept my challenge? Why don't you post on that board and share your wisdom with sex workers? Why don't you tell them that they are misguided in thinking their job offers any advantages, and that in fact you think those messages are all written by pimps?
I am sure sex workers will be delighted to hear from entitled women who want to tell them what they should be thinking or what they should be doing.

Have you even had a look at the website? Do you really think that a website with advice on how sex workers can stay safe and avoid pimps is... written by pimps?

@YetAnotherDude You don’t think men log on to websites to shill for prostitution?

What are you doing here, then?

You continue to dodge the points raised. I wonder why.

If you are right, then that's one more pearl of wisdom you should be sharing with that forum. Come on, go ahead.

You and many like you feel triggered when a woman says that she chooses to do it freely. This is not possible, it contradicts your ideology and preconceptions, so ideological fury blinds you and leads you to dismiss and ignore anything which might challenge your strongly held beliefs.

It would be one thing to say that women in these situations are an unrepresentative minority.
Quite another to imply that they don't exist, or that they are wrong and misguided when they think they are doing it freely.

BTW, it's been most entertaining to observe the cognitive biases on display here. I wonder if more will keep coming.

FYI, feminists don't scold prostituted women. We critique the situation they are in, not the women themselves.
It also draws attention to them which is pointless. Its the punters that drive demand.

No-one here is either triggered or full of “ideological fury” apart from you 😆

I don’t think random posters on internet forums are necessarily truthful or transparent about their motives for posting. You certainly don’t seem to be. Are you a punter, or are you a pimp?

@catontheironingboard Are you a punter, or are you a pimp?
That you think these are the only two possible options says a lot about you

@TheInebriati FYI, feminists don't scold prostituted women. We critique the situation they are in, not the women themselves.

No, you don't scold them directly, you simply refuse to acknowledge they might disagree with you: if a woman says they do it freely, you don't "scold her" directly, but you imply she must be lying, or maybe it's a man saying it, or she must be misguided, etc. You don't acknowledge that as a legitimate view and a legitimate choice.

And you refuse to acknowledge the power imbalance by which a woman in an insecure job might insist she loves her job; as long as she relies on it for her income.

Are you a punter, or are you a pimp?
That you think these are the only two possible options says a lot about you

Go on then. What are the other options? Why are you so invested in trying to convince us that there are positive aspects to prostitution?

@Thelnebriati I never said nor implied that they "love" their job. I pointed to evidence, comments etc that SOME (not all but some) choose to do it freely not because they are coerced but because they find it is better than the alternatives realistically available to them. None of this means they love it (some might, but it doesn't follow), none of it means that it's not dangerous.

Do you acknowledge that some women may choose to do it freely, yes or no?
Is this a possibility, yes or no?

@OldCrone I am interested in policy in general. I am interested in looking into the Nordic model for the same reasons I am interested in whether decriminalising drugs works or not: not because I want to inject heroin into my veins, but because I am interested in understanding what works.

I could not care less if you believe me or not. Believe what you will.

@YetAnotherDude It does not surprise me that they accuse you of being a punter or a pimp, that is quite a common tactic in this debate. I would like to quote from a book by Hilary Kinnell, who set up an outreach project for sex workers in Birmingham.

"The core of the current radical feminist position is the assertion that sex work is 'in and of itself violence against women', that no woman ever freely consents to sex and that all clients are motivated by the desire to dominate, humiliate and hurt. This is the contemporary orthodoxy; it is shockingly heretical to suggest any other typology for women who sell sex or for men who buy; to do so leaves one open to very serious insinuations, not merely that one is terminally naive, culpably ignorant or colluding with abuse, but quite probably part of an international conspiracy to promote prostitution and in the pay of international traffickers. Despite such unnerving accusations, because my subject is violence in the sex industry, I cannot wholly ignore the 'sex-work-is-violence' line, so I will explain why it is a meaningless shibboleth which diverts attention from violence as sex workers themselves define it and from the structural conditions that allow it."

In what other industry is it considered acceptable for some of the workers to be trafficked because others work of their own free will?
In what industry is it normal that none of the workforce to have sick pay, paid maternity leave, a pension, or other workers benefits?
The sex industry refuses to sort itself out so has no right to be surprised when legislation is imposed on it.

@Thelnebriati who has ever said or implied it's acceptable?
You are arguing against a false strawman argument no one has ever said, thought or implied.

In fact, you should remember that one of the first things I said was I totally understand the argument to ban sex work if only a tiny minority do it freely - but I also said that such decisions should be driven by facts and evidence, not ideology.

You talk about sick pay and pension. Presumably you are referring to those countries (eg Germany or Spain, but not the UK) where brothels are legal? I have no idea how it works there, if the women are employees, freelancers or what.

In the UK, brothels are illegal, a woman cannot be employed as a sex worker, but she can decide to do the job herself. In that respect, her sick leave pension etc are no different from those of any self employed person.

I get it, you feel triggered and angry, but your angry outbursts are misguided and lack any basis.

If you're suggesting that prostitution should be a job like any other, and regulated in the same way as any other employment, there are a few things that need to be considered.

One is that health and safety regulations require that people whose work deals with bodily fluids have use appropriate PPE. This is to protect both the employee (or self employed person) and the people they come into close contact with. How would this work in prostitution?

It seems to me that it would be impossible to regulate as a legal occupation for this reason alone.

@OldCrone you seem to ignore that prostitution is already legal in many countries, including the UK.

It is one thing to say that current regulations are inadequate, quite another to say that it is impossible to regulate the profession when it is already regulated!

Other countries, like Germany and Spain, have legalised brothels. I have no idea what the regulations are for those.

How do they get round the H&S regs? Is it because they're self employed? Is it legal for workers in other areas to disregard H&S regs if they're self employed? For example could a self employed care worker disregard the H&S regs if they and their clients agreed to do so?

There’s a big difference between decriminalised and legalised, which you aren’t quite getting, here.

Article from Jan 16th

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-dominatrix-warns-sex-workers-070859087.html

"A Scottish dominatrix has warned sex workers will lose their "basic survival techniques" if a proposed prostitution bill passes in Scotland.

Porcelain Victoria, 26, submitted an open letter to politicians opposing the Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill and said the legislation would endanger women and expose them to violence."

Am I?

I thought that decriminalisation means the action remains illegal but is no longer a criminal offense, whereas legalisation means the action is legal.

I also thought that prostitution is legal in England, Germany and Spain.

For example the City of London Police explains on its website that

^www.cityoflondon.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sw/sex-worker-safety/^
The exchange of sexual services for money is legal in the UK (apart from in Northern Ireland where it's illegal to pay for sex).

while soliciting and other activities remain illegal

Maybe you can help me understand what exactly I, and the City of London Police, would have got wrong?

Thank you!