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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pushing back against the so-called Nordic Model of sex work

554 replies

SnugFinch · 14/12/2025 19:11

Hi. I'm aware that my views might not be the most popular, but I am posting here in good faith.

Many of you know that Ash Regan has been campaigning to get sex work legislation in place which follows the neo-abolitionist model, or Nordic Model. This so-called Nordic Model claims that it will punish buyers of sex work, while not criminalising sellers, and that this will benefit sex workers and stop sex trafficking.

However, this is untrue. By criminalising buyers, it ensures that the only people who will buy sex are criminals who don't care about breaking the law. And because sex workers have a smaller client pool, they have no choice but to put themselves at the mercy of these criminals, and can end up suffering violence as a result.

This so-called Nordic Model has been law in the island of Ireland for nearly a decade now, and it has made things worse for the women involved, and it has done nothing to stop sex trafficking, as the facts in this article (and the testimony of a former sex worker) prove.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2025/02/07/on-problems-with-the-nordic-model-of-prostitution/

Ash Regan's bill has been delayed for the moment, but it hasn't been defeated. There is a growing worry that what happened in Ireland could happen in Scotland. And it could extend to England and Wales as well.

Feminists should want to end violence against all women. So why is there support for the Nordic Model, which has proven to be so hazardous to female sex workers?

I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.

Minister deals new blow to Ash Regan 'Unbuyable Bill' with scathing assessment

The Scottish Government minister Siobhain Brown has dealt a significant blow to Ash Regan's plans to crackdown on prostitution after delivering a…

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25685603.snp-minister-deals-blow-ash-regan-unbuyable-bill/

OP posts:
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36
Christinapple · 08/01/2026 07:56

"Its purpose is not to arrest as many men as possible."

It's failed miserably then. Catching clients in the first place is difficult enough (any ideas to how it can actually be enforced unless you want the Gov to put cameras in the home of every sex worker?) but even when you do that you need the sex worker to testify in court against her client (and she will need to be dragged along to to court in Scotland to do this for any client convictions to happen, despite Ash Regan saying sex workers won't need to).

Nordic Model N. Ireland has had one client conviction in a decade!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-67802849

OldCrone · 08/01/2026 08:43

Christinapple · 08/01/2026 07:56

"Its purpose is not to arrest as many men as possible."

It's failed miserably then. Catching clients in the first place is difficult enough (any ideas to how it can actually be enforced unless you want the Gov to put cameras in the home of every sex worker?) but even when you do that you need the sex worker to testify in court against her client (and she will need to be dragged along to to court in Scotland to do this for any client convictions to happen, despite Ash Regan saying sex workers won't need to).

Nordic Model N. Ireland has had one client conviction in a decade!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-67802849

Did you misread the post you replied to?

"Its purpose is not to arrest as many men as possible."

All your comments about convictions are irrelevant as a response to this statement.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 09:34

@CharlieParley The purpose of the model is to reduce demand, disrupt the market, remove criminal penalties from those sold, and shift social norms so that buying women is no longer treated as acceptable male behaviour.

And where is the evidence that the model has achieved any of this?

Both the European Court of Human Rights (2024) and the Ontario Superior Court of Justice (2023) examined research and data provided as evidence for this claim and thoroughly rejected it because none of these papers could show any causation between the Nordic Model law on prostitution and the harms people in prostitution experience.

Can you please elaborate? I don't follow. Courts opine on whether something is legal, constitutional, etc. They do NOT opine on whether a certain policy is effective, nor on whether policy A is better than policy B.

Against that backdrop, arrest numbers in the low hundreds over several years do not show that the law “doesn’t work”; they show that it has not been enforced at scale. Both jurisdictions have acknowledged this explicitly.

Are you talking about Northern Ireland alone, or also Norway and Sweden?
A policy should be assessed on whether it has been working, not on whether it would work in some hypothetical, far-fetched scenario.
Norway and Sweden are among the richest, least unequal countries on the planet. Can they afford to enforce this Nordic model properly, yes or no?
If yes, where is the evidence that it has worked, that demand has dropped, etc.?
If no, then it means the model is a failure, because it would require a level of investment and resources which not even come of the richest countries on the planet can afford.

whether some women choose prostitution freely. That question is a dead end for policy. What matters is the distribution of coercion and constraint across the system as a whole, not the most privileged minority within it.
It depends on how you frame it. You should remember that I did not say that all women choose it freely, and I specifically said that there is a good argument to be made against prostitution if the women choosing to do it freely are very few and unrepresentative.

However, at the same time it is also true that some posters here feel triggered, throw temper tantrums and absolutely lose their shit at the mere suggestion that some women may be doing it freely and/or out of greed.
That's what blind ideological fury does: it blinds people to self-evident banalities.
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When your only interpretation is that women are always victims, you cannot admit that some women, no matter how few, may actually choose to do it freely.
I have been attacked, insulted, called a trafficker, a pimp and worse for simply suggesting that the women in the Netflix documentary, or the girl in the Spitzer case, who was charging $4,000, were doing it freely not because they lacked alternatives, but because they preferred the easy money to a minimum wage job.
When I then dared point out that men in the same minimum wage jobs do not have an option to charge $$$$$ for OF content or sex work, many posters los their shit. But facts remain true even if you don't like them.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 09:44

@OldCrone That's not the same logic at all. In the drug trade, the drugs are the product which is being bought and sold. In prostitution, the prostitutes are the product which is being bought and sold.

I guess we can only agree to disagree, then.
Whether the product being sold is a substance or it is a service provided with one's body, the fact remains that some people enter into these "trades" because they have no alternatives, while others do it out of greed: they have alternatives, the alternatives pay less, they want more money, so they choose what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, to be "easier" money.

@catontheironingboard BUT, just like the “Dude” above, one thing you never like is to talk about the “customers” - the MEN who buy sex
Wrong. Factually wrong. I did talk about the men who buy sex. I had said two things.

I said that I refused to go to a job working for someone who had bragged about seeing young foreign sex workers who clearly had a pimp, and for whom the likelihood of being trafficked was high. I found this guy to be a despicable person with no morals and I had no intention of working for him. The point is not whether guys like him deserve a medal, but whether the Nordic model is effective at reducing demand and reducing risk for sex workers.

I also said that I can think of a couple of middle-aged guys, a widower and two divorced men, about whom I wondered if they had started seeing sex workers, based on their conversations and change in behaviour. I appreciate I may be more libertarian than most, but, in these cases, IF the women in question chose to do it freely, with no coercion trafficking etc, then I see nothing wrong with it.

The Italian tycoon and ex-politician Silvio Berlusconi had a "girlfriend" who was 50 years younger, and when he dies he left her EUR 100 million (look it up). I think this was more immoral than someone like a belle du jour freely choosing to do sex work to top up her income at a certain time in her life. Or are you going to tell me that Berlusconi's girlfriend was coerced and is a victim of a patriarchal society?

catontheironingboard · 08/01/2026 10:15

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 09:34

@CharlieParley The purpose of the model is to reduce demand, disrupt the market, remove criminal penalties from those sold, and shift social norms so that buying women is no longer treated as acceptable male behaviour.

And where is the evidence that the model has achieved any of this?

Both the European Court of Human Rights (2024) and the Ontario Superior Court of Justice (2023) examined research and data provided as evidence for this claim and thoroughly rejected it because none of these papers could show any causation between the Nordic Model law on prostitution and the harms people in prostitution experience.

Can you please elaborate? I don't follow. Courts opine on whether something is legal, constitutional, etc. They do NOT opine on whether a certain policy is effective, nor on whether policy A is better than policy B.

Against that backdrop, arrest numbers in the low hundreds over several years do not show that the law “doesn’t work”; they show that it has not been enforced at scale. Both jurisdictions have acknowledged this explicitly.

Are you talking about Northern Ireland alone, or also Norway and Sweden?
A policy should be assessed on whether it has been working, not on whether it would work in some hypothetical, far-fetched scenario.
Norway and Sweden are among the richest, least unequal countries on the planet. Can they afford to enforce this Nordic model properly, yes or no?
If yes, where is the evidence that it has worked, that demand has dropped, etc.?
If no, then it means the model is a failure, because it would require a level of investment and resources which not even come of the richest countries on the planet can afford.

whether some women choose prostitution freely. That question is a dead end for policy. What matters is the distribution of coercion and constraint across the system as a whole, not the most privileged minority within it.
It depends on how you frame it. You should remember that I did not say that all women choose it freely, and I specifically said that there is a good argument to be made against prostitution if the women choosing to do it freely are very few and unrepresentative.

However, at the same time it is also true that some posters here feel triggered, throw temper tantrums and absolutely lose their shit at the mere suggestion that some women may be doing it freely and/or out of greed.
That's what blind ideological fury does: it blinds people to self-evident banalities.
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When your only interpretation is that women are always victims, you cannot admit that some women, no matter how few, may actually choose to do it freely.
I have been attacked, insulted, called a trafficker, a pimp and worse for simply suggesting that the women in the Netflix documentary, or the girl in the Spitzer case, who was charging $4,000, were doing it freely not because they lacked alternatives, but because they preferred the easy money to a minimum wage job.
When I then dared point out that men in the same minimum wage jobs do not have an option to charge $$$$$ for OF content or sex work, many posters los their shit. But facts remain true even if you don't like them.

Nobody has been having a tantrum or “losing their shit” except you.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 10:36

@catontheironingboard Nobody has been having a tantrum or “losing their shit” except you.
I consider hurling insults and personal attacks a sign of losing one's shit.
I am not surprised you disagree.
I would invite you to reflect on how, had I done the same, I would have probably been banned.

Oh, by the way, I was insulted and attacked but I didn't insult nor offend anyone, so how, exactly, would I have lost my shit? Please, do enlighten me.

catontheironingboard · 08/01/2026 10:42

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 10:36

@catontheironingboard Nobody has been having a tantrum or “losing their shit” except you.
I consider hurling insults and personal attacks a sign of losing one's shit.
I am not surprised you disagree.
I would invite you to reflect on how, had I done the same, I would have probably been banned.

Oh, by the way, I was insulted and attacked but I didn't insult nor offend anyone, so how, exactly, would I have lost my shit? Please, do enlighten me.

Can you show us where you were personally insulted and attacked? As opposed to just being disagreed with.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 10:55

@catontheironingboard I have been called a pimp and a trafficker.
Is this your definition of reasonable, respectable disagreement among reasonable people?

By contrast, you say I lost my shit, but can you point to any example where I have insulted anyone? Thank you!

Dolly96 · 08/01/2026 13:30

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 10:55

@catontheironingboard I have been called a pimp and a trafficker.
Is this your definition of reasonable, respectable disagreement among reasonable people?

By contrast, you say I lost my shit, but can you point to any example where I have insulted anyone? Thank you!

"By contrast, you say I lost my shit, but can you point to any example where I have insulted anyone? Thank you!"

Here are several examples of you insulting both posters and the women in this vile trade you are so hellbent on defending.

"However, at the same time it is also true that some posters here feel triggered, throw temper tantrums and absolutely lose their shit at the mere suggestion that some women may be doing it freely and/or out of greed."

"It's clear you will not listen to anything which challenges your prejudices, and that you feel the need to insult those who dare disagree with you with derogatory terms. Enjoy the view from your high horse. Goodbye."

"I get it that acting like a smartarse "well, actually" kind of person can be satisfying"

"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

That is deranged, unhinged, out of touch feminism of the worst kind."

"Because these cases contradict the feminist preconceptions, the narrative that women are always exploited. Because these cases highlight that some women can be greedy and act unethically (according to most) out of greed. So anything which challenges strongly held ideology must be ignored and dismissed."

"Come on, if you have to pay the rent it's a necessity. If you charge $4,000 per meeting it's greed."

"your poor text comprehension skills are not my fault."

"Your intelectual dishonesty in putting words in my mouth is not my fault."

"But I don't expect the dogmatic to have the open mindedness to understand."

The insults don't really matter. But the hypocrisy of whining about being insulted while going out of your way to belittle everyone else who dares to disagree with you and your cherry-picked arguments does matter.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 13:43

I do not belittle those who disagree with me. I belittle those, like you, who are intellectually dishonest and put words in my mouth. I am not surprised you fail to appreciate the difference between calling me a pimp and a trafficker, and me calling out the dishonesty of putting words in my mouth or accusing me of the exact opposite of what I had said. But this doesn't mean the difference isn't there.

Dolly96 · 08/01/2026 13:53

Shifting the goalposts again.

You asked for examples of insults you had made. When provided, you ignore the examples and continue whining about yourself.

As to the pimp and trafficker allegations, re-read your own posts, including the demeaning way you speak about the women in prostitution. Hard not to draw that conclusion.

Or you can continue conflating "disagreement" and "intellectual dishonesty" while crying foul against everyone else. It doesn't matter. Most here see you for what you are.

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 14:08

Wrong again.

I did not demean the women in prostitution. I said that some do it freely and/or out of greed. I also said I totally understand the argument that maybe such women are few and unrepresentative, but they exist. This is not demeaning anyone, it is listing facts which most of you don't like and feel triggered by. But facts don't care about your feelings. Tell me, how is it demeaning to suggest that maybe the women charging $4000 might do it freely and are not in the same conditions as the poor victims of trafficking and coercion??

Again, I called out the poor text comprehension skills and the intellectual dishonesty of those who crafted strawman arguments, put words in my mouth, and accused me of saying what I hadn't said. If mine are insults, then we don't speak the same language.

I mean, just a few posts above I was accused of never talking about the men who buy sex, after I had said I refused to go work for a guy who bragged about seeing probably trafficked sex workers, and saying how despicable I find these people. If this is not intellectual dishonesty, I don't know what is. Not that you will realise it, stuck in an echo chamber.

Goodbye.

PS any more insults you feel like hurling st me?

Dolly96 · 08/01/2026 14:39

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 14:08

Wrong again.

I did not demean the women in prostitution. I said that some do it freely and/or out of greed. I also said I totally understand the argument that maybe such women are few and unrepresentative, but they exist. This is not demeaning anyone, it is listing facts which most of you don't like and feel triggered by. But facts don't care about your feelings. Tell me, how is it demeaning to suggest that maybe the women charging $4000 might do it freely and are not in the same conditions as the poor victims of trafficking and coercion??

Again, I called out the poor text comprehension skills and the intellectual dishonesty of those who crafted strawman arguments, put words in my mouth, and accused me of saying what I hadn't said. If mine are insults, then we don't speak the same language.

I mean, just a few posts above I was accused of never talking about the men who buy sex, after I had said I refused to go work for a guy who bragged about seeing probably trafficked sex workers, and saying how despicable I find these people. If this is not intellectual dishonesty, I don't know what is. Not that you will realise it, stuck in an echo chamber.

Goodbye.

PS any more insults you feel like hurling st me?

Your lack of self-awareness is stunning.

Your own words were quoted to you, not put in your mouth. That's happened repeatedly, but you keep dodging by alleging "strawman arguments" and intellectual dishonesty." That's been with every poster who has replied to you. But of course, everyone else is wrong and only you are right, and you have your "echo chamber" excuse ready to make that claim.

That you don't see your words as insulting shows just how ignorant you really are. But it's everyone else's fault. They're "triggered." Very telling that you use "facts don't care about your feelings" as a line.

As to your claim: how is it demeaning to suggest that maybe the women charging $4000 might do it freely and are not in the same conditions as the poor victims of trafficking and coercion??

Read the testimony of women who managed to get out of prostitution and no longer have to play the role of "happy independent hooker" to survive. You'll learn who really gets that £4000. Hint: it isn't the woman. There are very few independent women, if any. And those who are can be beaten and raped as badly as any women who either works for an agency or is trafficked. Marketing means pretending otherwise.

As to your little anecdote about the guy you refused to work with because he had sex with trafficked women: if it's true, good for you. But what sort of circles are you socialising in that you meet such people in the first place?

By the way, you can say "Goodbye" all you like. It's a public forum, and you don't get to dictate what people post and when. And for all your "intellectual" posing, it's pretty poor logic to say goodbye and then ask for more "insults."

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 15:30

Was belle du jour trafficked?
Are the OF models charging $10,000 for a "meeting" all trafficked?
Were the women in the Netflix documentary all trafficked?

I have made clear examples of being accused of the exact opposite I had said, and you still think I lack self awareness, or that calling that out was an insult. There are no words to describe your thought process.

catontheironingboard · 08/01/2026 16:38

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 15:30

Was belle du jour trafficked?
Are the OF models charging $10,000 for a "meeting" all trafficked?
Were the women in the Netflix documentary all trafficked?

I have made clear examples of being accused of the exact opposite I had said, and you still think I lack self awareness, or that calling that out was an insult. There are no words to describe your thought process.

Belle du Jour was a made-up erotic novel / film written as a titillating erotic fantasy.

That’s what we mean when we say your ideas on prostitution are fantasies. And sure, all those OnlyFans “models” who are getting £10k per meeting. That’s the reality of sex work of course, not just some probably made-up nonsense put out by the Daily Express or incel rant blogs. Do you believe everything you read or think all erotic novels are real?

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 16:52

The woman in the Spitzer case charged $4000. She was certainly not the only one. I know not because a tabloid said so but because there was a thorough investigation. Do you dismiss every single piece of news which contradicts your preconceptions? Pathetic.

A quick Google search shows dozens of women charging £1000 and more in London. All a fantasy?

Why Google even shows these is a separate matter...

ArabellaSaurus · 08/01/2026 17:04

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 16:52

The woman in the Spitzer case charged $4000. She was certainly not the only one. I know not because a tabloid said so but because there was a thorough investigation. Do you dismiss every single piece of news which contradicts your preconceptions? Pathetic.

A quick Google search shows dozens of women charging £1000 and more in London. All a fantasy?

Why Google even shows these is a separate matter...

What brings you to the feminist section of Mumsnet, YetAnotherDude?

catontheironingboard · 08/01/2026 17:06

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. Basing your ideas about prostitution on what a newspaper reported about a scandal in another country is not the mark of serious thought, or anything based in fact and evidence. It’s conjecture. Taking some reported figures from somewhere in the papers or blogs about OnlyFans is not public policy data. You’re engaging more with media anecdotes and fantasies about prostitution, not realities or evidence.

Do you genuinely think high class escorts who reportedly charge rich American politicians large sums are representative of the vast majority of prostituted women? And even if they were, why should we think that they are empowered by it? Why isn’t it more likely that an expensive escort “service” or a pimp is getting most or all of that money? Are you under the impression that being an escort is a wonderful secure career? And why are you somehow so enraged by the amount, rather than to feel sorry for a young woman who is presumably leading a seedy and not very pleasant life?

Maybe you could try servicing a few American politicians and see how much money you think you should get for whatever you have to do to them. (If I had to have sex with an American politician I’d be demanding a lot more than £4K for it, and not just to pay the medical bills for treating whatever STI I’d risk catching.)

Christinapple · 08/01/2026 17:59

Ash Regan is today enjoying her 2 day suspension from Holyrood for rule breaking. MSPs voted 84-18 to suspend her (it seems other MSPs like her as much as the general public does).

I'm sure this will do wonders for her anti sex work bill.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ash-regan-suspended-from-holyrood-prostitution-bill-5465570

Dolly96 · 09/01/2026 09:40

YetAnotherDude · 08/01/2026 15:30

Was belle du jour trafficked?
Are the OF models charging $10,000 for a "meeting" all trafficked?
Were the women in the Netflix documentary all trafficked?

I have made clear examples of being accused of the exact opposite I had said, and you still think I lack self awareness, or that calling that out was an insult. There are no words to describe your thought process.

I said specifically that whether independent, trafficked, or employed by an agency, all women in prostitution are vulnerable to danger. How you read that and assume it all means trafficked can probably be summed up by a quote of yours:

"your poor text comprehension skills are not my fault."

The rest isn't even worth acknowledging. It's been pointed out, and you choose to ignore it.

Perhaps it's best that we choose to ignore you from now on.

JennyShaw · 09/01/2026 12:22

@Dolly96

"Read the testimony of women who managed to get out of prostitution and no longer have to play the role of "happy independent hooker" to survive. You'll learn who really gets that £4000. Hint: it isn't the woman. There are very few independent women, if any. And those who are can be beaten and raped as badly as any women who either works for an agency or is trafficked. Marketing means pretending otherwise."

There is a belief among Radical Feminists that every woman who leaves prostitution has a negative view of it. However, Unashamed, Paying For It and Lucky Girl are 3 books that don't gloss over the negative aspects of prostitution but are not negative towards it.

Then you have Paid For by Rachel Moran. She is very negative about prostitution but if you look for evidence that she had to hand over her money to someone else there's not much to find. When she started she was involved in street prostitution where she kept all of her money.

After the 1993 law change women were penalised for street prostitution, although many continued, including at times Rachel Moran herself. When Rachel was working in a brothel she would have had to pay some money to whoever was running the brothel. She had a flat of her own however. We know that because she writes in her book that she rented it out to other women. Women who didn't have a flat of their own would give Rachel money to bring their clients there.

So that's one example of pimping in her book but she doesn't have much else to say about pimping. But that's enough of the anecdotal data, let's have a look at the stats.

In the Ann Marie O'Connor et al 1996 study mentioned earlier in this thread 93% stated that wanted money to pay bills. 7% stated alcohol, drugs or pimps. "The remaining women cited needing money for alcohol, drugs or pimps as their reasons for entering into prostitution."

This study gives a snapshot of life for prostitutes in Ireland in 1996. It won't be like that now. Life is much more difficult for them now, more like in the book that the OP started this thread with. The value of the O'Connor study is that it shows that prostitution is not inherently evil. It will not always be the case that the majority of prostitutes hand over the majority of their earnings to someone else, that will depend on the law of the country at that time.

catontheironingboard · 09/01/2026 13:24

prostitution is not inherently evil

How can anyone reach that conclusion by simply asking if women have pimps or not and whether they “keep their own money”? The mind boggles at this bizarre non-logic.

How about you try thinking about the physical, emotional and psychological effects on those women, on their families and children, on the way women are treated in society, on the degrading wider effects of allowing men to buy something that should only be given freely, the degrading effects on men, the damage to their wives, partners, mothers and children and their communities? Prostitution is inherently degrading because it treats women’s bodies as a commodity and consent as something that men can purchase.

If I think about the idea of sleeping with some man I am not attracted to because I have to, I feel disgusted. Most if not all women feel similarly - that’s why they aren’t out randomly shagging anyone. Are you suggesting that prostitutes are some kind of special woman who doesn’t feel disgust or alienation at the idea of sleeping with strange, often old or ugly, men, or men they don’t love or like or know? How do you explain the fact that they apparently are willing to do what other women won’t? Some kind of lesser women, or some kind of specially hardened women, maybe? (That would be pretty grim of you.) Or are they a category of women who either don’t feel like other women do about sex, or have trained themselves differently somehow? If they aren’t coerced or under some kind of duress, why do you think they are they doing it? Do you actually think they like it? Because most people in the world would like a nicer car or lifestyle, yet somehow aren’t having sex for money to get it? Why not?

There are some very dark and tangled ideas about women underneath these repeated threads and posts about how much prostitutes like their exploitation and all these “studies” and books you like to cite over and over again. The same stuff, and the same near-identical posts, for years and years now. You’ve been posting these exact same things ever since I started reading FWR years ago, and every time it’s with this strange disconnect between the desire to “prove” that women like being prostituted, and a lack of awareness of the real effects of prostitution on the lives of women and children, as well as on our wider society. I don’t even think you know anything about it first hand - you just seem obsessed with reading about it as if women are these bizarre zoo animals that you like to speculate about instead of actual people. It’s all very very abnormal.

JennyShaw · 09/01/2026 19:30

catontheironingboard · 09/01/2026 13:24

prostitution is not inherently evil

How can anyone reach that conclusion by simply asking if women have pimps or not and whether they “keep their own money”? The mind boggles at this bizarre non-logic.

How about you try thinking about the physical, emotional and psychological effects on those women, on their families and children, on the way women are treated in society, on the degrading wider effects of allowing men to buy something that should only be given freely, the degrading effects on men, the damage to their wives, partners, mothers and children and their communities? Prostitution is inherently degrading because it treats women’s bodies as a commodity and consent as something that men can purchase.

If I think about the idea of sleeping with some man I am not attracted to because I have to, I feel disgusted. Most if not all women feel similarly - that’s why they aren’t out randomly shagging anyone. Are you suggesting that prostitutes are some kind of special woman who doesn’t feel disgust or alienation at the idea of sleeping with strange, often old or ugly, men, or men they don’t love or like or know? How do you explain the fact that they apparently are willing to do what other women won’t? Some kind of lesser women, or some kind of specially hardened women, maybe? (That would be pretty grim of you.) Or are they a category of women who either don’t feel like other women do about sex, or have trained themselves differently somehow? If they aren’t coerced or under some kind of duress, why do you think they are they doing it? Do you actually think they like it? Because most people in the world would like a nicer car or lifestyle, yet somehow aren’t having sex for money to get it? Why not?

There are some very dark and tangled ideas about women underneath these repeated threads and posts about how much prostitutes like their exploitation and all these “studies” and books you like to cite over and over again. The same stuff, and the same near-identical posts, for years and years now. You’ve been posting these exact same things ever since I started reading FWR years ago, and every time it’s with this strange disconnect between the desire to “prove” that women like being prostituted, and a lack of awareness of the real effects of prostitution on the lives of women and children, as well as on our wider society. I don’t even think you know anything about it first hand - you just seem obsessed with reading about it as if women are these bizarre zoo animals that you like to speculate about instead of actual people. It’s all very very abnormal.

Edited

Dolly96 stated that prostitutes don't get to keep the money that is handed to them. I have shown that is not true. With anecdotal and statistical evidence. You seem to have a problem with that. It's as if you believe that anybody can come on to Mumsnet and state any old rubbish, but when someone contradicts that you find it unacceptable. Do you think that I'm going to let people say things that aren't true when the stakes are so high? What do you think the purpose of a forum is?

The fact is that nearly all prostitutes in Ireland in Ireland in the early 1990s didn't have pimps and got to keep their own money. You resent me saying that. You're going to resent me even more when I tell you what else Irish prostitutes have told Ann Marie O'Connor and her colleagues in this study.

"Why start ? 'what! save in a couple of years would have taken me a life time in a normal job'" page 9

“The bad thing is having to hide, the good thing is that it keeps you independent”.

“I have been able to provide for my children without being dependent on any man”.

"When asked about the advantages and disadvantages of working in prostitution most of the women interviewed felt that the money, the standard of living it provides and “the freedom it gives” was the main advantage. “The financial rewards are great, the children don’t have to go short of anything”. “It gives
you a better way of life for your children”. Flexible working hours and being your own boss were also seen as positive aspects of the job." page 12

I don't have 'the desire to “prove” that women like being prostituted'. I have never said that they enjoy their job. Everybody is different. Some people would hate working in an abattoir or an undertakers. Other people take it in their stride.

I have more awareness than you do of the real effects of prostitution. I have more awareness than you do of the effects of ineffective laws that come into force because people are either unaware or will not listen to researchers such as Ann Marie O'Connor. People who believe false things and resent being corrected.

How do you think it feels to be a Romanian woman who has her money taken away from her, is deported and has her name splashed across many newspapers? For the rest of her life everyone will know that she went to Ireland to earn money through prostitution. If she had worked on her own the police couldn't have touched her, but because she worked with another young woman that was "brothel-keeping". When the Nordic Model came to Ireland they doubled the penalties for brothel-keeping. What do you think that will do to her mental health?

catontheironingboard · 09/01/2026 20:11

I don’t resent you at all. I’m just totally bewildered at the doubling down on this very, very weird obsession you have. And every post gets weirder.