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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
CraftyRedBird · 12/12/2025 01:39

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 11/12/2025 23:31

Yes, under questioning Upton accepted that Sandie hadn't mentioned Isla Bryson or rapists. Sandie said "it's like those women in the prisons", meaning the women at danger from male sex offenders. I think Upton must have taken "those women" to mean "transwomen" and it all got flushed out during questioning.

But the bottom line is that both Sandie and Upton agreed that Sandie hadn't mentioned Bryson or rapists, and the judge didn't accept that. The judge decided he knew better and that they were both lying.

Mind-blowing.

Adding to this...it shows Dr. Upton's contemporaneous notes, even when they actually were contemporaneous were about as useful as loo roll, legally speaking.

They were how he interpreted what Sandie had said not what she actually said.

This "comparing to a rapist" was also included in the Datix and so on and so forth I recall.

Dr. Upton and Sandie should have quickly be asked (edit by HR or their individual managers) for as far as they could recall exactly what was said in the conversation.

MyAmpleSheep · 12/12/2025 01:43

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 00:32

I mean I am happy to become a legal researcher for lazy judges.

If Kemp wanted a better quote:

Dr P Wilkins Respondents: Defence Science and Technology Laboratory
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/687e55f188c74f0fd15c96d5/Dr_P_Wilkins_v_Defence_Science_and_Technology_Laboratory_-6000548.2023-_Reserved_Judgment.pdf

  1. There are many things that are not covered by the Equality Act 2010 as of right and there is no sanction thereunder for unpleasant or less favourable treatment because of those things. It is also clear that there is no hierarchy of protected characteristics. They are listed in alphabetical order in the EqA. The rights of an employee who holds a philosophical belief is entitled to be upheld as much as the rights of any particular sexual orientation, age, race etc. Whilst there may be conflict at times potentially between different protected characteristics (e.g. religion and sexual orientation), what is required is to balance those competing legal rights again as set out above.

But as I wrote earlier, Wilkins is a first level, ET, decision. It shouldn’t be quoted approvingly by another ET. It’s not a precedent and is entirely irrelevant to SK’s job. If he’s using other ET decisions to inform his own, that would be misconduct also.

So also if he rolled dice, used an ouija board or cavorted naked under the full mood painted with chicken’s blood in an attempt to summon the spirits of his ancestors. That’s not how he’s supposed to decide.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 12/12/2025 02:48

ThatCyanCat · 11/12/2025 22:38

Is she even that useful? She cocked up interpreting the law and made a total arse of herself and, by extension, Fife, in the tribunal. The more I think of her earning more than the nurses while babbling about how she doesn't know if she's a man or a woman, the crosser I get.

"Useful idiot" has a specific political meaning.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 12/12/2025 03:16

HildegardP · 11/12/2025 23:38

Think we may be minting a new kink rather than a gender ID with our legal pashes. My State comp didn't offer classical Greek but maybe something along the lines of dikēgorophilia or nomikosophilia? 😆

IANAclassicist but I think dikigorosophilia is more apt. Nomikos is a Biblical Greek term to mean religious law interpreter or guardian of the law, like a rabbi.

Dikigoros is what the Greeks call a barrister.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 12/12/2025 03:23

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 00:28

Ok so this is full circle. On a hunt for Asher case and references to hierarchy of rights....

Look what I found. Legal feminist, founded by Naomi Cunningham (she may well be the author legal feminist)

  • Resolution of a conflict of rights is not assessed on who has the ‘better’ or more progressive cause: there is no hierarchy of rights;

This was the subject of the Supreme Court’s decision in the Ashers cake case where Christian owners of a bakery had refused to ice the message “Support Gay Marriage” onto a cake. The Court held that the service was not refused to the claimant because he was gay, but because the bakery would have refused to ice that particular message onto a cake for anybody, regardless of their sexual orientation.

https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/05/conflict-of-rights/

The Ashers judgement doesn't use the word "hierarchy", so Big Sond wasn't quoting Ashers there.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 12/12/2025 03:57

SternlyMatthews · 12/12/2025 00:45

This afternoon I asked Copilot LLM 'give me a short list of PDF difference comparers for files or online' (& then lost the post bcos the thread was full), posting now just to mention that I found an archive version of the judgement before any changes (Dec 9th)
https: // web.archive.org/web/20251209022506/ https: // www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Peggie-v-Fife-Health-Board-and-another.pdf

edited to try & fix the URL - MN gets confused bcos h t t p s occurs twice - remove spaces to create link

Edited

To properly post archive.today and archive.org links, you have two options:

The pointy-clicky, "code scares me" option

  1. Click or tap the chain icon next to the bin at the bottom of the text box.
  2. Paste the link into the bottom field that says Link.
  3. Replace the second colon with %3a.
  4. Put some nice friendly text in the top Text field.
  5. Click or tap Save, then preview your post to check that the link works.

The geek option

Type this, but with two of the square brackets at each end, instead of the one shown: [https://web.archive.org/web/20251209022506/https%3a//www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Peggie-v-Fife-Health-Board-and-another.pdf my text here]

  1. Tap or click the link that is automatically created and then tap or click remove link.
  2. Preview to test the link.

It's the second colon that confuses the Mumsnet forum software.

This should be a working link to the original Peggie vs Fife HB & Anor judgement.

GallantKumquat · 12/12/2025 04:32

KTheGrey · 11/12/2025 22:57

That interesting - it seems to an outsider that there is almost no control or accountability for judges. Can you explain any more about the spiriting away process? What is significant enough to set it off and how it happens?

One could broaden the observation that to an outsider there is almost no controls or accountability for anyone within the civil service, judicial service or what's more generally called the blob. No one wanted this. No one voted for it. At no point was it debated. At no point was it even legal. And yet here were are in a multi-year process, with untold millions spent trying to roll back something that should never have stood in the first place if people were doing their jobs. Think how different this could have been if one extremely rich and tenacious author hadn't decided to make this cause a major part of her legacy at unfathomable personal cost. And did so at point which, in retrospect, was very nearly the last possible moment at which this could be turned back.

When people want to vote for Reform or agree with Trump, this is the arrogance they see, it looks like a breakdown of democracy and the imposition of tyranny to them, and while we all know there are real differences between Britain and Nazi Germany or the USSR, the supporters do have a point, this is a type of tyranny, it's multi-axis, coordinated, lawless state repression and abrogation of individual rights.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 05:01

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 12/12/2025 03:23

The Ashers judgement doesn't use the word "hierarchy", so Big Sond wasn't quoting Ashers there.

Edited

The Ashers quote is the other totally hallucinated quote. Odd theyre both referred to in this source doc.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 05:04

MyAmpleSheep · 12/12/2025 01:43

But as I wrote earlier, Wilkins is a first level, ET, decision. It shouldn’t be quoted approvingly by another ET. It’s not a precedent and is entirely irrelevant to SK’s job. If he’s using other ET decisions to inform his own, that would be misconduct also.

So also if he rolled dice, used an ouija board or cavorted naked under the full mood painted with chicken’s blood in an attempt to summon the spirits of his ancestors. That’s not how he’s supposed to decide.

Edited

Well quite

I was picking it up because that’s likely where the original quote came from and / or fed the hallucinating large language model. There is very little available with that sepecific hierarchy quote. The point was at least the cut and paste came from an actual ET.

Yes it’s not binding precedent but I’m not sure I agree all other ETs can’t be quoted in a case. They are highly persuasive, particularly if from a well-reasoned judgment or if they deal with a complex area of law, or on similar facts or reasoned well in an area that is directly relevant.

Point was here’s some source materials that fed the hallucinations. As you were.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 05:32

ThatCyanCat · 11/12/2025 14:29

Fantastic Wings article.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 05:35

Beerlzebub · 11/12/2025 14:35

.

Hahaha Ben Cooper to the hapless Mark Plant, wasn’t it?

EmmyFr · 12/12/2025 05:38

I'm still fuming that a tribunal declared Upton to be truthful and Sandie's honor remains soiled by the allegations of patient mistreatment. Is there any chance that this is overturned in appeal or will it be considered a "fact" That Upton was not lying on this?

Cailin66 · 12/12/2025 05:47

I don’t see how a legal judgment can be changed. Surely that itself can’t be legal. Sure fixing spelling mistakes or typos, that’s fine as it’s not changing anything, but changing legal quotes from other judgments, which were out on as legal argument to back up the Judge’s legal thinking and decision seems outrageous. It also looks like the amended version will have to be again corrected. So now we will have three different judgments.

ironically this is very similar to the ill tempered NHS statement during the trial, which was modified a number of times.

Judge Kemp/his office should have taken more time to think about modifying. In actual fact I don’t think it’s ok to modify at all. Imagine we were six months or 2 years down the line if an appeal and you’d now go deal with a modified judgment.

dunBle · 12/12/2025 05:49

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 16:43

He also represented Sex Matters in the FWS case in the Supreme Court.

For @sillygoof , @FeralWoman and anyone else puzzled by the Ben Cooper fan club on this board, it's basically that he's been involved in a number of successful Gender Critical Tribunal cases, and is very good at making pretty dry complex bits of law fairly easy to understand, even for those of us who don't have access to all the legal precedents he's referring to. He's not a tubthumping showy barrister, but clearly has an excellent grasp of his area of law, and occasionally allows himself flashes of dry wit - eg the oft-mentioned "it would be unkind of me to ask how it's all panned out" comment to a witness at Maya's tribunal regarding some evidence discussing possible PR risks associated with her case.
If you want to see him in action, skip to 59m15s of the 26 November 2024 - Afternoon session of the For Women Scotland hearing in the Supreme Court.
www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042#watch-hearings

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 06:03

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:13

I'm so angry with these bastards for failing and monstering women. For exposing us to this shit and then smearing us for complaining. Fuck them all.

This with bells on. Just watched as I’m in a different time zone at the moment. Sandie’s statement was very moving, and her solicitor Margaret’s comments about the reality of women’s ability to “complain”were powerful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 06:09

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:37

Yep. She was just trying to do her job, while dealing with all the usual shite that women have to deal with - menopausal struggles, family illness, plus the stress of frontline work, and her employer has to spaff our tax money on paying idiots like Isla 'don't know if I'm a woman' Bumba to give a fanny like the supercilious Dr Upton carte blanche to hang out in her changing room, then offer him every benefit of the doubt when his obviously upsetting presence causes yet more stress for a woman. He made up bullshit to try and get her sacked. He mocked all women with his 'big girl panties' schtick. He loved trotting out his bullshit philosophy tube nonsense to an eager audience, and that wee nyaff of a judge lapped it all up and thought that nice Dr Upton who went to a nice school, a good uni, and has a good family must be the good guy here. Sandie - just a disposable wee wumman of no consequence. Not even worthy of writing a clear judgement, instead he just cobbles together an incoherent character assassination in lieu of an actual judgement.

Potter retires in the nick of time. NHS Fife admit at last that Peggie was right all along, now that the big bloke at the Supreme Court put his foot down.

Because they won't listen to women, especially not women who aren't the right nice good type of women. Because THOSE women don't deserve rights, and those rights are bigoted to even want anyway, so any woman who asks for them reveals herself to be not worthy by the act of asking. (If she sinks, she's innocent.)

Shame on the lot of them.

Applauding 👏

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 12/12/2025 06:40

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we set out to deceive"

This hideous ideology is only maintained by lying and expecting others to maintain that lie with you

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 06:44

borntobequiet · 11/12/2025 19:20

Thursday 6th Feb, DU being examined by JR. Sandie mentioned prisons, DU assumed Isla Bryson. But we know there were other male prisoners in women’s prisons in Scotland. Why jump to the most notorious?

Edited

I remember lolling at the “casting aspersions on my people” line as I was watching live.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/12/2025 06:47

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 12/12/2025 06:40

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we set out to deceive"

This hideous ideology is only maintained by lying and expecting others to maintain that lie with you

Bingo.

This isnt just mauled by AI. It looks like the kind of tortuous crap AI would come up with if you told it to.come up with a predecided conclusion.

More on the correction etc:

wingsoverscotland.com/strike-one/

Skyellaskerry · 12/12/2025 07:05

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/12/2025 00:43

Oh I can retire!! Hurrah! Thank you. I will sleep tight tonight 😍

The bit I would add to this which are more difficult to access is the building standards bs6465 part 1 from 1984 which were the standards in place when the 1992 legislation was being drafted up. There are some crucial paragraphs about door gaps (my specialist subject!) and cubicles and rooms below.

The standards show clearly that a cubicle is not a room. It’s a bit like saying a wardrobe in a bedroom is a separate room.

This means when the 1992 legislation says that the only mixed sex toilet is one that is in a separate room, it does not mean a cubicle.

Here’s a couple of paragraphs from bs6465-1 (1984): ...where a range of WCs is provided, each in a separate cubicle within a single room, e.g. in schools, offices, factories, public buildings and public conveniences, it simplifies ventilation, cleaning and, to some extent, supervision and prevention of wilful misuse, if the cubicle walls terminate above the floor as well as below the ceiling. These advantages are gained only at the expense of a certain degree of privacy. Where cubicles are used, the whole room in which they are situated may be regarded as a single unit for the purposes of ventilation.
Where partition walls and doors of WC cubicles are kept clear of the floor, the clearance should be not less than 100 mm and not more than 150 mm. Partitions and doors that terminate below ceiling level should be not less than 2 m in height from the floor.’

@MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL thank you so much! I really appreciate it.

I have a situation in my own life regarding toilets and so the regular posts you make @Keeptoiletssafe came to mind and are so informative and helpful Flowers

Cailin66 · 12/12/2025 07:07

Two questions.

  1. what is the slip rule ? (UK legal rule about changing documents/judgments)
  2. big Sond on here refers to Judge Kemp, I don’t get it?
SqueakyDinosaur · 12/12/2025 07:08

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 00:59

The 1984 edition of BS 6465-1 (full title: Sanitary appliances. Code of practice for scale of provision, selection and installation of sanitary appliances) is an older, withdrawn British Standard that has been superseded multiple times (first by the 1994 version, then by the 2006 edition).

Availability
No free full PDF or official version of the 1984 edition is legally available online (BSI standards are copyrighted and not placed in public archives like archive.org).
It is not hosted on government sites, standards databases, or free repositories.
The full document must be purchased from BSI or authorized sellers if needed (though it's rare to find the 1984 version in print today).

(I am marking this for my reference for any toilet related research). I think @Keeptoiletssafe if it could be found surely some smart lawyers would want to pay a few hundred pounds for it.

Would UK copyright libraries hold a copy of it?

Skyellaskerry · 12/12/2025 07:11

Ah yes the cost of these Standards I remember this from a job I once had, couldn’t quite believe it!

MyThreeWords · 12/12/2025 07:13

Busy night shift on this thread! Did someone set a rota, like in war movies? I'm imagining tired posters huddled round a fire, shaking awake the next sentry on watch duty before they allow themselves to sleep.

Another2Cats · 12/12/2025 07:14

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 21:52

If the 1992 meaning is incorrect it has a massive knock on affect to so many regulations and standards and legislation that with have to be rewritten. If you look at the British Standards 6465 for instance, you can see where the terminology comes from. There are Approved Codes of Practice, Building Standards, Regulations like Part M. Then there’s Clauses in the Sexual Offences Act (2003) that will need to be refined. The implications would be huge. Plus, it isn’t workable for lots of reasons of being discriminatory to other groups and of course, plainly denying reality.

I would love to challenge Regulation 20. I think the most obvious is the Leonardo case and the judge mixed up her cubicles, rooms and blocks.

In the documents about implementing 1992 legislation and toilets, the HSE talks about separate-sex toilet washrooms then unisex rooms in relation to that.

I haven’t heard about Mrs Oakley! Will have to look her case up!

Edited

"I haven’t heard about Mrs Oakley! Will have to look her case up!"

I've just checked and I made a small mistake, it was actually Mr Oakley that brought the claim.

The House of Lords judgment is here:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldjudgmt/jd001129/birmin-1.htm

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