Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

Just as long as they put them out on the correct day that's fine!

Which, as someone with no knowledge of these things, I'm sure is an incredibly reasonable rate for a decent PR firm.

Even so that's another £14,000 on top of what's already been spent on tribunal costs.

I'm just angry that the NHS Fife (and every where else) could have saved all that money from the get go by just saying no to entitled men.

😂😂😂

Unfortunately I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
I suppose people have been swallowing the old shite spewed out by TRA's for far too long, uncritically.
I have two women friends whom I've known for 30 years. Both of them believe that trans women are women. One of them sent me a petition recently from the Good law party saying that trans women are not a threat to women, the threat to women is male violence from men. This distinguishes between a trans woman and a man, an artificial distinction which my old friends seem to have swallowed whole.

I hate this situation because in the case of one of these friends, I steer away from this subject. I can't talk to her about it, I won't talk to her about it. I think her views are emotional and not reasonable. I don't know whether she has any trans friends or what; but my other friend does have a member of her family who fairly recently came out as trans (male to female, a young person) and it is reportedly "much happier".

Maybe in the future I will find a way to speak to the first friend. I can talk to the second friend but the situation there is too personal from her perspective, which makes discussion difficult.

Oh I do hope someone puts a question on this to the QT panel. They've got Stephen Flynn SNP leader on. Plus Anas Sarwar from Labour. But four men (all politicians) and only one woman (journalist) on the panel.

I can't help contrasting the judge's facile take on the extent to which surface-level appearance equates to being a woman (ignoring all other factors) and the degree to which Sandie's 30 years in health care will have allowed her to hone her skills in identifying men and women to advanced expert level. I bet it takes her a mere yoctosecond to know which sex a person is, with 100% accuracy. This is one of her strengths and should not be disregarded.

That interesting - it seems to an outsider that there is almost no control or accountability for judges. Can you explain any more about the spiriting away process? What is significant enough to set it off and how it happens?

I think that the class aspect of this case is extremely important. It highlights the contempt with which (some) men hold women generally but specifically when they are seen as subservient. I find it so peculiar that none of them appear to have wives or daughters or sisters or mothers who are telling them, what life is like for women. Have they really never had our reality explained to them?

It beggars belief, doesn't it?

Is that the sound of barrel-scraping I hear?

Pretty much.

"We need to find a trans martyr."

"Okay. How about the violent sex offender who has died in a male prison after being denied a transfer to the women's prison estate? That'll show those bigots!"

Bloody hell if that piece of work is all they've got to commemorate they really are desperate.

https://archive.ph/fWhFa

I agree. Men, well they're men. Some of them are on our side in the GC wars, some of them take it as an opportunity for misogynism, and lots don't see our point of view or just don't care.

There are women who just don't care too. But the ones who, as you put it, are cheerleaders for these men... I see them as traitors.

Times Article

Judge Kemp must immediately refer himself to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office.”

Go Sandie - take them all down!

People will now have to go through every other case that Kemp has dealt with and cross-check all the references.”

I think that an early retirement beckons.

Yes, under questioning Upton accepted that Sandie hadn't mentioned Isla Bryson or rapists. Sandie said "it's like those women in the prisons", meaning the women at danger from male sex offenders. I think Upton must have taken "those women" to mean "transwomen" and it all got flushed out during questioning.

But the bottom line is that both Sandie and Upton agreed that Sandie hadn't mentioned Bryson or rapists, and the judge didn't accept that. The judge decided he knew better and that they were both lying.

Mind-blowing.

@Keeptoiletssafe I’m very interested in this:

“In the documents about implementing 1992 legislation and toilets, the HSE talks about separate-sex toilet washrooms then unisex rooms in relation to that.”

and wonder if you could let me have a reference so I can read these documents?

Think we may be minting a new kink rather than a gender ID with our legal pashes. My State comp didn't offer classical Greek but maybe something along the lines of dikēgorophilia or nomikosophilia? 😆

I know. I agree. A right mess!!

Margaret Gribbons also had the gold brooch. Maya too.

I have become addicted to toilets after @Keeptoiletssafes education so let me link

Full Approved Code of Practice and Workplace Regs 1992
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l24.pdf

There is nothing in the regulations that suggest toilets need to be in a seperate lockable room formed by a partition. Toilets are to be bounded by cublicles or rooms. Toilets bounded by cubicles need to be bounded by a facilitiy with entrances and exits to make it single sex.

If cubicles are designated as rooms then the rest of the regulation makes no sense at all. Mixed sex facilities can only be in seperate rooms.

Further clarity is offered with the provision disabled toilets where it states, suitable toilet accommodation may take the form of specially designed cubicles in separate-sex toilet washrooms or a self contained unisex toilet;

Building Regulations which give life to the details of the Workplace Regulations 1992. They are totally single sex focused. See page 49 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66f6c5eec71e42688b65ee11/ADM__V2_with_2024_amendments.pdf

https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm

HSE BOOKS © Crown copyright 2002
A guide for employers
New and expectant mothers at work
First published 1994
Second edition 2002
ISBN 0 7176 25834 https://www.qub.ac.uk/directorates/EstatesDirectorate/UniversitySafetyService/FileStore/Filetoupload923384en.pdf

Resting facilities: Rest is important for new and expectant mothers. Tiredness increases during and after pregnancy and may be exacerbated by work-related factors. The need for rest is both physical and mental.
Hygiene facilities: Without easy access to toilets (and associated hygiene facilities) at work, due to distance, work processes or systems, etc, there may be increased risks to health and safety, including significant risks of infection and kidney disease.
Because of pressure on the bladder and other changes associated with pregnancy, pregnant women often have to go to the toilet more frequently and more urgently than others.
Breastfeeding women may also need to do so because of increased fluid intake to promote breast milk production.

JK Rowling is funding Sandie's defence

We don't know that JKR is funding Sandie's legal team, do we? And Sandie isn't a defendant in a criminal proceeding, she's a claimant in a tribunal.

The TImes has suggested - Judge Kemp must immediately refer himself to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office.

That would do nicely

This is surely evidence of bias. I think that was before Sandie's team had engaged a stenographer to record the proceedings but iirc they were paying for a transcript of the first part?