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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is anyone else starting to doubt their own sanity?

133 replies

TheNightingalesStarling · 06/12/2025 15:44

For days now, every time I go online its "bigots, transphobes, there is no safeguarding issue, bullies, preying on lost vulnerable etc".

Even people i thought were intelligent.

I'm starting to doubt my sanity. Even though people would look at you if you were mad if you said something like "why do schools need separate changing rooms for PE" or "Of course id let my 15yo have a sleepover in a tent with one boy".

I'm seeing articles about how peoples brains are different. Suggesting that all women think the same way.

I'm wondering if these people would say the same if it was their teen daughter upset... or would they be saying "there's nothing to upset about".

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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WarriorN · 07/12/2025 10:56

ArabellaSaurus · 07/12/2025 10:30

If we want to talk about 'lanyard class', its LI.

totally.

half of this realisation has come from the This Isn’t working podcast. The other from some tentative LinkedIn surfing and what some people have told me.

and Janet Murray’s posts on Twitter

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/12/2025 11:00

Catiette · 07/12/2025 10:45

Something else I wanted to add, re: the focus on "what's the issue, these are really young kids so there are no physical issues", that I also posted on the AIBU threads (Is it bad form to C & P your own posts a bit? dunno, but I wanted to add it bc I think it's so relevant to all this...)

Yep. The one I've not shared - and these were boys, not transgirls, but frankly what matters to me is that they were male (what's in someone's own head or what they're wearing makes no meaningful difference to me when it's their body that can hurt me)...

When I was somewhere between 7 and 10? (AKA Brownie age?), I had a number of close encounters with aggressive boys in my year group at my (tiny, really well-run) school.

One was always trying to intimidate the girls - he was absolutely, unambiguously quite a bit bigger and stronger than us, really male-ly stocky, with this brute animosity, and he clearly relished our wariness. I remember how unsafe we felt in his presence, and how we adapted our behaviour around him. (I took him on once in angry fear - pushed him a little - and was a heroine for weeks!)

And another boy once took my head between his hands, and intentionally smashed it as hard as he could back into a concrete wall.

Interestingly, I do remember a primary school girl trying to physically intimidate me in the changing room, too, but it was markedly all posturing, and I experienced it very differently. She was seriously tall for our age, yet there simply wasn't the same degree of physical dominance, or anticipation of latent aggression, or sense of my own vulnerability in the experience.

I do remember Brownies and Guides as feeling very, very different because of the absence of the boys from school. Not automatically better (and one of my best friends from a very young age was a boy, and there were a number I liked or admired from a distance!)... but sufficiently different for it to quite clearly be offering something special to girls. Something that people are now arguing they should lose.

After posting this, I actually googled differences in size and strength in the sexes at 9 or so, and pasted the AI summary (which includes the excellent "some quora users" as one referenced source, but I think there's agreement, isn't there, that these differences begin pre-puberty?...):

I was thinking about this again last evening. I could imagine some of the nay-sayers coming back at it with, "Yeah, but this isn't always the case, and what does 10% matter anyway?" (sports-style counter-arguments). And then I thought of the analogy that (just as in sports, they'd never say this in the context of doping)... if you imagine someone proudly telling you that they'd dropped 10% of their body weight, or increased their muscle mass by 10% in the gym, people would immediately recognise that as a huge achievement, a really striking, tangible difference. And yet in this context, it doesn't matter?

Again, the sheer arbitrariness of what is and isn't valued as significant gives the lie to any argument that sexism is now obsolete.

I knew I had come across some recent research about this, but couldn’t think where. Then I remembered @Helleofabore‘s fabulous evidence threads, and like magic, there it was!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?reply=148895275&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Conclusion
Muscle strength is greater in boys than girls before, during, and after puberty, though the presence of this sex difference is more certain after puberty. At all stages of development, the difference is greater in upper- than lower-limb muscles. Between 5 and 13 years old, boys have, on average, 17%–18% greater upper-limb strength than girls and 8%–10% greater lower-limb strength. Male puberty causes the sex difference in muscle strength to increase dramatically, such that, between the ages of 14–17 years, boys have, on average, 50% greater upper-limb strength than girls and 30% greater lower-limb strength. Sex differences in body height, body mass, and body composition are the likely causes of greater muscle strength in boys than girls throughout development.

Page 5 | Save female sports evidence thread | Mumsnet

I am conscious that the Break it Down for me thread is nearly full. I am therefore hoping that this thread can be an archive thread just for the sport...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?reply=148895275

Catiette · 07/12/2025 11:06

Thank you - and to Helle (who's been an absolute warrior on the AIBUs, too!)

Catiette · 07/12/2025 11:07

It'll be thanks to her and/or one of you amazing lot that I know that. 😅

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2025 11:08

Aside from issues with the inclusion of boys in terms of physical differences and safety issues on trips etc, GG was previously unique in that it offered a space for girls to work out their world in a girl focused space. The presence of boys, whoever they identify, means that is lost.

Catiette · 07/12/2025 11:08

I mean, "Between 5 and 13 years old, boys have, on average, 17%–18% greater upper-limb strength than girls" - and people think single-sex Brownies offers nothing of value to girls?!?

Catiette · 07/12/2025 11:09

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2025 11:08

Aside from issues with the inclusion of boys in terms of physical differences and safety issues on trips etc, GG was previously unique in that it offered a space for girls to work out their world in a girl focused space. The presence of boys, whoever they identify, means that is lost.

Totally.

TheAntiGardener · 07/12/2025 11:21

Several years ago I felt like you do. When it seemed all organisations were pushing the same line, when opposing voices weren’t being heard. When most people weren’t even familiar with the arguments so going along with the be kind stuff because they didn’t understand what was going on. When it felt like your response to whether TWAW was an acid test as to whether you were a decent human being or not.

Things have changed so much in the last few years.

I don’t feel alone now and in fact realise I’m in the majority. I still think those who push TWAW thinking are completely illogical, but I’ve stopped going on to question myself. Not that I ever came to a different conclusion!

nicepotoftea · 07/12/2025 11:27

If organisations don't want to be single sex, I genuinely don't understand why they don't just become mixed sex, or define their membership by interests or beliefs rather than sex.

Chersfrozenface · 07/12/2025 11:33

nicepotoftea · 07/12/2025 11:27

If organisations don't want to be single sex, I genuinely don't understand why they don't just become mixed sex, or define their membership by interests or beliefs rather than sex.

Because that won't do at all for the TRAs and their minions.

The whole point is for pretend women to be allowed into women's spaces and organisations when other men aren't. Because that, in their eyes, proves that they are actually women.

DustyWindowsills · 07/12/2025 11:36

Cattywillow · 07/12/2025 07:11

One of the things that has peaked me is watching a friend whom I previously agreed with on most things and considered intelligent and reasoned become more and more unreasonable around this issue. Anyone who objects or raises issues is a ‘hateful bigot’ and there can be ‘no debate’. She constantly posts on fb to that effect and gets lots of likes (although not as many as when she posts neutral things). She has a trans child who has had her breasts amputated. She is one of Helen Joyce’s parents who will go down swinging. She is intent on getting as many people around her swinging with her, which they do for obvious reasons and I think decisions like GG bring them out of the woodwork. There is no way back for some people so they will hold on for dear life and their desperation makes them passionate enough to pull along those who have not considered the issue from the other side.

That sounds like an old and dear friend of mine.

When I saw her recently, she was upset about a weekend she had just spent with relatives, in which she was constantly having to push back against their (apparently) bigoted opinions on a range of political and social issues. The worst instance was when a young female relative said something positive about a well-known children's author, on the lines of "She has founded a lot of charities." My friend saw this as a personal betrayal.

I think the problem is a mindset in which strong opinions are rooted in blind faith rather than reason. If you can't articulate why you believe something, you can't debate or even discuss it. Then any disagreement is interpreted as a form of heresy.

ETA Reading what I've just written, I feel like a right old bitch. But I do genuinely find it troubling. I want to maintain relationships with old friends who have become true believers, but I also think it's important to tell the truth.

SwirlyGates · 07/12/2025 12:01

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/12/2025 09:29

Absolutely! It's why language is so important and why using men instead of TW makes such a difference

"I think it's so awful trans women are banned from the women's institute"

compared to

"I think it's so awful men are banned from the women's institute"

It's why they police our speech. They want to use speech to change our thinking.

SumUp · 07/12/2025 12:12

‘Online’ is the operative word in your original post. I see people ranting online about the WI / Girl Guides decision. But nothing in real life but nuance, and a welcoming of their return to common sense.

Anyone that has had safeguarding training as part of their career and has worked with vulnerable people can envisage the real world problems for women and girls that TWAW based policies could cause.

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2025 12:18

'Happily' [that may be putting it a bit strongly], OP, I'm coming out the other side of the place you are in now.

When the full irrational illogical horror of the impact of the trans juggernaut on everything first dawned on me, my mental wellbeing was shaken in a way it never was before.
It felt like the world turned upside down, and the abdication of common sense and scientific fact.

Fortunately I discovered this board, and followed links, and found out that there was a fightback going on.

Then there was a succession of legal judgements in the UK which reasserted a degree of rationality.

I emphasise 'in the UK' - if you are a UK subject, a resident of Terf Island, OP, you are relatively speaking very lucky. The fightback has gained more traction there than anywhere else.

Be of good heart! Sursum corda! Courage calls to courage everywhere! and various other encouraging thoughts, OPSmile
We'll get there💜💚

plantcomplex · 07/12/2025 12:32

SumUp · 07/12/2025 12:12

‘Online’ is the operative word in your original post. I see people ranting online about the WI / Girl Guides decision. But nothing in real life but nuance, and a welcoming of their return to common sense.

Anyone that has had safeguarding training as part of their career and has worked with vulnerable people can envisage the real world problems for women and girls that TWAW based policies could cause.

All adult volunteers in Girlguiding will have had to complete the organisation's safeguarding training. Read into that what you will.

ArabellaSaurus · 07/12/2025 12:46

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2025 12:18

'Happily' [that may be putting it a bit strongly], OP, I'm coming out the other side of the place you are in now.

When the full irrational illogical horror of the impact of the trans juggernaut on everything first dawned on me, my mental wellbeing was shaken in a way it never was before.
It felt like the world turned upside down, and the abdication of common sense and scientific fact.

Fortunately I discovered this board, and followed links, and found out that there was a fightback going on.

Then there was a succession of legal judgements in the UK which reasserted a degree of rationality.

I emphasise 'in the UK' - if you are a UK subject, a resident of Terf Island, OP, you are relatively speaking very lucky. The fightback has gained more traction there than anywhere else.

Be of good heart! Sursum corda! Courage calls to courage everywhere! and various other encouraging thoughts, OPSmile
We'll get there💜💚

In the UK, women on here have been backed up 100% by the Supreme Court.

That fact certainly should provides a fair amount of relief to anyone concerned they are BU.

Six or seven years ago, we might have been banned from this board for saying that a Transwoman is a man. Ditto Twitter. No newspaper would report on the issues, we had to speak in code and meet in secret. My god, that was a test for anyone who ever may have doubted their sanity!

Its still a bit hard but we have:

  • Forstater, proving that its WORIADS to believe that sex matters.
  • The Cass Report
  • The Supreme Court judgement to prove that man and woman mean biological sex.
  • Politicians from every party speaking up for women, in both Houses.
  • Many grassroots groups and networks established, including a couple of charities.
  • Coverage in virtually every news outlet, from various angles.
-NCHIs (nearly) scrapped
  • The Free Speech Union
-a good and growing number of books on the subject -increasing numbers of high profile allies speaking up

It's absolutely astonishing how far we've come. This, in the face of hugely well funded and strategised groups who had taken over so many governments and bodies.

Bon courage to all of us.

Catiette · 07/12/2025 12:59

As other posters have said, speaking up can really make a difference. I feel pretty hypocritical posting this as I've been seriously remiss in my emailing and petitioning recently after stepping back a bit (other major life events) - but I've got back in the game and contacted Guides since their announcement.

For anyone else who wants to send a short message, whether to support the decisions, or condemn the statements, or just seek reassurances given their upsetting tone...:

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/

https://www.thewi.org.uk/contact-us

Greyskybluesky · 07/12/2025 13:10

DustyWindowsills · 07/12/2025 11:36

That sounds like an old and dear friend of mine.

When I saw her recently, she was upset about a weekend she had just spent with relatives, in which she was constantly having to push back against their (apparently) bigoted opinions on a range of political and social issues. The worst instance was when a young female relative said something positive about a well-known children's author, on the lines of "She has founded a lot of charities." My friend saw this as a personal betrayal.

I think the problem is a mindset in which strong opinions are rooted in blind faith rather than reason. If you can't articulate why you believe something, you can't debate or even discuss it. Then any disagreement is interpreted as a form of heresy.

ETA Reading what I've just written, I feel like a right old bitch. But I do genuinely find it troubling. I want to maintain relationships with old friends who have become true believers, but I also think it's important to tell the truth.

Edited

You really shouldn't feel like that Dusty 💐

And I find it very interesting that you said a young female relative was positive about the female author. It's always heartening to hear that not all young people are captured by this.

lemonraspberry · 07/12/2025 13:40

Not your sanity. I think this is an odd mix of the typical British need to please everyone & offend no one, mixing with gen z who have grown up glued to social media & list touch with reality which is leading to all this.

Gen X grew up with British encyclopaedia (fact driven) rather than google & Tik Tok, androgynous role models & a goth sub culture (but could tell the difference between men & women). Social & political fights were experienced (amongst others) through the Falkland’s war, Troubles in Northern Ireland and animal rights by the ALF plus women & gay rights,

I appreciate this generation want a cause to fight for but surely they can do better than demanding access to women’s loos for men wearing skirts & make up & resorting to cancel culture. Bit embarrassing really.

DustyWindowsills · 07/12/2025 13:49

Greyskybluesky · 07/12/2025 13:10

You really shouldn't feel like that Dusty 💐

And I find it very interesting that you said a young female relative was positive about the female author. It's always heartening to hear that not all young people are captured by this.

Well, the young relative is only relatively young! I believe early 30s. I suspect she was cautiously signalling that she has GC views, and my friend picked up on that.

Talkinpeace · 07/12/2025 13:50

"It cannot be happening because if it was the BBC would report it"

The Prescott memo holed that below the waterline.

Now the BBC are starting to report properly
and GG, WI, Labour party are finally listening to their lawyers.

Kwishner Falkner on Sky News this morning ....
John McDonnell's ration on Xtwitter

Daylight is the best disinfectant.
The BBC have had to raise the shutters and many many more people are starting to see how systematically the Lanyard class has lied to them.

nicepotoftea · 07/12/2025 14:02

lemonraspberry · 07/12/2025 13:40

Not your sanity. I think this is an odd mix of the typical British need to please everyone & offend no one, mixing with gen z who have grown up glued to social media & list touch with reality which is leading to all this.

Gen X grew up with British encyclopaedia (fact driven) rather than google & Tik Tok, androgynous role models & a goth sub culture (but could tell the difference between men & women). Social & political fights were experienced (amongst others) through the Falkland’s war, Troubles in Northern Ireland and animal rights by the ALF plus women & gay rights,

I appreciate this generation want a cause to fight for but surely they can do better than demanding access to women’s loos for men wearing skirts & make up & resorting to cancel culture. Bit embarrassing really.

Gen X are also old enough to not take for granted things like access to birth control, maternity leave and criminalisation of rape within marriage, and to have seen the impact on previous generations who did not have these rights.

5128gap · 07/12/2025 14:13

Has anyone yet been able to explain to you using reliable data why its NOT a safeguarding issue? Has anyone provided robust scientific evidence about brain difference that is accepted by the majority of experts in the field?
If they have and you persist in believing differently then you might be wise to consider if you're being rational. However in the absence of anything compelling, you're wiser not to believe things people say based on nothing more than their feelings.

Grammarnut · 07/12/2025 15:01

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 06/12/2025 16:02

Yes, I know some very devout believers, and every now and again, I ask myself Cromwell's question: I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken?

And then I think: nope.

But it doesn't even matter if I'm wrong. A secular society must accommodate people with different beliefs as far as practicable. I shouldn't be forced to share a changing room with a transwoman any more than I should be allowed to sack my Muslim employee for refusing to man the bacon slicer.

I'm not wrong though.

No, although manning the bacon slicer would be ok. He/she just can't eat bacon. Selling it is fine, I understand.

Grammarnut · 07/12/2025 15:07

TheNightingalesStarling · 06/12/2025 17:16

You are all right.

I work with children. This has included trans-identifying children. None of them think people actually change sex... just that they want to be seen that way.

I'm just remembering also there's probably plenty thinking this way but are too scared for their jobs etc to actually say so.

I would likely be thrown out of my volunteering if I said anything that wasn't TWAW in public (which means I don't say anything). Possibly find myself in an uncomfortable situation in my place of worship, too. But the tide will turn (and they'll all find something else weird to believe).