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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is anyone else starting to doubt their own sanity?

133 replies

TheNightingalesStarling · 06/12/2025 15:44

For days now, every time I go online its "bigots, transphobes, there is no safeguarding issue, bullies, preying on lost vulnerable etc".

Even people i thought were intelligent.

I'm starting to doubt my sanity. Even though people would look at you if you were mad if you said something like "why do schools need separate changing rooms for PE" or "Of course id let my 15yo have a sleepover in a tent with one boy".

I'm seeing articles about how peoples brains are different. Suggesting that all women think the same way.

I'm wondering if these people would say the same if it was their teen daughter upset... or would they be saying "there's nothing to upset about".

OP posts:
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ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 22:42

JeannieDark · 06/12/2025 22:19

I’m worried the GG and WI announcements this week will make it look like we are being unreasonable. I don’t think we are but the reporting has been so terrible and the reactions haven’t been what I would expect they would be if people actually understood what’s going on. In the absence of them understanding I think that there’s a risk we look unreasonable to the casual observer.

Yeah, dont worry, we've been through all this many, many times before. Every time things shift there are ruptures and upsets. Hold the line.

SidewaysOtter · 06/12/2025 22:44

Hold the line.

This is exactly it. It happens over and over again and we just stand calm and firm, like dealing with a toddler tantrum.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 22:50

Other people are free to believe there are three or ten or seventy five sexes, and that all spaces should be mixed sex, or that any man who wants to use women to validate himself, or cheer himself up or learn social skills or make him feel better about himself, should be indulged and celebrated.

If they want to change the law they will need to go through the process.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 22:54

Because the law is very simply on our side.

If people want there to be a way to remove single sex spaces and permit some men to use women's spaces, they need to go ahead and get the EA changed.

Labour are dithering and mithering over guidance. Time they put their money where their mouth is.

Remove the single sex exemptions. Go ahead.

worstofbothworlds · 06/12/2025 22:55

@theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw I do the same periodically - is there any new evidence which makes me think gender is more important than sex, or that makes me question the conclusions I have so far drawn? And there isn't. I'm an academic in STEM and I've changed my mind on several academic topics.

BonfireLady · 06/12/2025 22:58

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 22:50

Other people are free to believe there are three or ten or seventy five sexes, and that all spaces should be mixed sex, or that any man who wants to use women to validate himself, or cheer himself up or learn social skills or make him feel better about himself, should be indulged and celebrated.

If they want to change the law they will need to go through the process.

This ⬆️

And those of us that don't hold this belief and/or are happy with the current law can hold the line in lots of different ways.

It's incredible that there are some people who will vocally and publicly make a stand, despite the onslaught against them (e.g. JKR, Graham Linehan, Rosie Duffield and many more), but it's also reassuring that each of us can make a difference in whatever way works for us. Quiet defiance is very powerful when it is multiplied up.... e.g. deliberately ignoring a call to action to put preferred pronouns in emails. Everyone who does one thing like this is adding their own contribution.

plantcomplex · 06/12/2025 22:59

TheNightingalesStarling · 06/12/2025 22:28

I do think if it had been made clear that the old guide policy made it possible for adult males to supervise young girls changing, or that mixed sex tents were not allowed to be complained about, some of the "what safeguarding issue?" Would have been avoided.

I also accept that in other countries, like the US currently, anti- trans legislation is going hand in hand with anti women and anti LGB legislation. So its a complex global issue.

It was in GG's interests to obscure that though. Hence the misleading statement and communications.

I am frustrated and disappointed at the misleading way it's been announced and reported.

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 23:03

The other thing that helps is speaking up. The first time is scary. You may lose a friend or two, it's true. But - just keep buggering on.

In person is usually easier. Dont always stay silent. You don't have to say much - but back others up. Ask a simple question. Write a letter. Email your MP.

Its all getting easier, all the time, and the more of us that speak up and speak out, the easier it will continue to get.

moto748e · 06/12/2025 23:04

SidewaysOtter · 06/12/2025 22:34

I think we all have phases (at least) of this. For me, it’s seeing friends - who’ve previously listened to me on this subject and empathised - suddenly having their heads turned and treating my views like I’m the embarrassing racist aunt. You do think, “Is it me”? But I’ve challenged my views to myself again and again and I know gender ideology is dangerous bullshit.

I agree with a PP that the GG/WI issue is kicking things off, but that’s coming from those who realise that the jig is up. It’s the last thrashing of a dying ideology, but there’s people who have nothing to lose from a last roll or two of the die.

Do you think that partly dates back to the time, though, when people were saying, ah, it's just the Mail and Telegraph that are pushing this; it's a Tory plot? But after a while, it was in the Times too, and the Observer, and now there's even the odd decent piece in the Guardian. And people can't ignore it any more.

BonfireLady · 06/12/2025 23:26

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 23:03

The other thing that helps is speaking up. The first time is scary. You may lose a friend or two, it's true. But - just keep buggering on.

In person is usually easier. Dont always stay silent. You don't have to say much - but back others up. Ask a simple question. Write a letter. Email your MP.

Its all getting easier, all the time, and the more of us that speak up and speak out, the easier it will continue to get.

Yep, definitely.

I've found that the more I speak up IRL, the easier it gets.

BonfireLady · 06/12/2025 23:28

BonfireLady · 06/12/2025 23:26

Yep, definitely.

I've found that the more I speak up IRL, the easier it gets.

TBF that has been something I've had to build up very cautiously and carefully. But it's definitely getting easier the more I do. I've found that doing so unlocks conversations that I wasn't necessarily expecting to have - in a good way.

moto748e · 06/12/2025 23:38

I find I have a lot of conversations with people in my head, that I'd like to have, but they don't happen. Because there's a risk. So I hope for a better time, and that does seem to be the direction of travel.

ETA: grammar

Waitwhat23 · 06/12/2025 23:38

It's well informed conversations when it comes up which makes all the difference. A comment from a friend about their niece's dislike of the all gender neutral (no single sex option) toilets at their school can lead to a discussion about the legal regulations regarding single sex toilet and changing requirements for schools. The mentioning of the writetothem website when a family member talks about not knowing who their MSP is. The signposting to JKR's letter when someone tells you about how they don't know what she's said but their friend says she's bad so she must be.

The informed conversations which allow people to investigate further and have a dawning moment of 'hang on a minute...'.

TempestTost · 06/12/2025 23:49

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/12/2025 16:11

The GG and WI decision has stirred the bees nest hard this week; it's starting to sink in that women having their own provisions is real and going to happen. This has always been a very, very noisy minority and the capture of the lanyard class, but one by one groups are quietly checking their own legal situations and having to acknowledge that women have legal rights too.

Bear in mind that the other POV is still just not allowed, in the media, online outside of this space, the heresy is banned so all you will hear is one side going unchallenged.

I think it's this captured class that continues to make me perplexed.

Like, how are they still caught up with this stuff? How have they not encountered the issues at all?

I think many are just utterly lacking in imagination.

But it really is very specific groups.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 06/12/2025 23:51

TriesNotToBeCynical · 06/12/2025 20:59

There is a picture of a woman bending over; I spotted that!

Ah ok. I missed it

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/12/2025 00:05

MistyGreenAndBlue · 06/12/2025 23:51

Ah ok. I missed it

It is quite subtle, in keeping with the modesty standards of the time, I guess!

Boston365 · 07/12/2025 02:08

Frequently, when a thread like the one one on girl guiding comes up on the other parenting website, and I find myself a lone voice in championing women’s sex based rights.

I come here or on twitter for a hefty dose of sanity.

Boston365 · 07/12/2025 02:16

TempestTost · 06/12/2025 23:49

I think it's this captured class that continues to make me perplexed.

Like, how are they still caught up with this stuff? How have they not encountered the issues at all?

I think many are just utterly lacking in imagination.

But it really is very specific groups.

I feel like this too.

Some are true believers and for them is similar to religion/ faith.

Some are unable to admit they’re wrong because the harm is so great and they would be too ashamed or embarrassed to have believed something so stupid.

Some are stuck in very left wing news/ media silos where they literally never hear anything negative about it, so they haven’t bothered to think anything through to its logical conclusion.

Cattywillow · 07/12/2025 07:11

One of the things that has peaked me is watching a friend whom I previously agreed with on most things and considered intelligent and reasoned become more and more unreasonable around this issue. Anyone who objects or raises issues is a ‘hateful bigot’ and there can be ‘no debate’. She constantly posts on fb to that effect and gets lots of likes (although not as many as when she posts neutral things). She has a trans child who has had her breasts amputated. She is one of Helen Joyce’s parents who will go down swinging. She is intent on getting as many people around her swinging with her, which they do for obvious reasons and I think decisions like GG bring them out of the woodwork. There is no way back for some people so they will hold on for dear life and their desperation makes them passionate enough to pull along those who have not considered the issue from the other side.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2025 07:12

Catiette · 06/12/2025 20:57

Really interesting thread. I'm finding the backlash astonishing and upsetting to see, and it worries me. We're "winning" now, and I think we will in the end, but I just hadn't expected it to be this tenacious.

A few other things that I think feed into that...

One paradoxical element is, I think how extreme it all is has sometimes worked in its favour. Most people are busy with their own lives / complacent / follow the crowd, so there's a default assumption that something of this kind couldn't/wouldn't happen, as our trusted institutions wouldn't have permitted it - a significant piece of the puzzle is the fallen the BBC, NHS, and schools. It means that, until very recently, you had to be pretty invested and work hard to uncover the reality behind popular propaganda. And who's going to do that?

The other thing that's feeds into this, again kind of ironically, is the sheer volume of the TRA voices and simplicity of their message. All that fiery confidence, in a society keen to right the wrongs of the homophobic past (or to be seen/appear to do so, in nice, easy ways!) Meanwhile, the GC message again requires independent thought and effort, and the readiness to face up to some upsetting realities. Being GC doesn't make you feel good as such, or not straightforwardly at any rate.

And TERFs' quieter, rational (until recently all-too niche) voices aren't always heard in the internet age. Exciting disinformation and reductive soundbite tend to be more fun or easier to swallow.

It all feels like the perfect storm.

Edited

I think it feels good for some people to be GC. It proves you’re a critical thinker while others are swept up in mania and an absurd ideology.

ThatBlackCat · 07/12/2025 07:17

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 06/12/2025 17:12

Blows my mind. Along with the thought terminating ‘it’s cis men not trans women that are the problem!’. I saw a great meme I wish I’d saved, four pictures of the same big hulk of a bearded guy, the first three had ‘not ok’ underneath but the last one had a dress on, that was the only difference and it had ‘ok’ underneath. Summed up this ridiculous ideology perfectly.

This one?

Is anyone else starting to doubt their own sanity?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2025 07:18

ArabellaSaurus · 06/12/2025 22:54

Because the law is very simply on our side.

If people want there to be a way to remove single sex spaces and permit some men to use women's spaces, they need to go ahead and get the EA changed.

Labour are dithering and mithering over guidance. Time they put their money where their mouth is.

Remove the single sex exemptions. Go ahead.

I think they were hoping that the previous, inaccurate guidance should stand in the interim, allowing organisations the discretion to allow in men. GG/WI/Labour Conference have demonstrated to TRAs that without a law change, organisations are going to err on the side of biological sex only in single sex spaces, because that’s the legal advice most of them are getting. And the government dithering over guidance is unlikely to save them if they flout the SC ruling.

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 07/12/2025 07:31

I must say that my faith in girl guiding has been shattered. Girl guides are supposed to tell the truth. A boy in a girl guide uniform is still a boy. It's not kind to anyone to pretend otherwise.

ArabellaSaurus · 07/12/2025 08:15

Another possibility is that we are seeing the 'I'm gc, but...' on a.larger scale.

Most people, other than the very deeply batshit, are starting to grasp the issues.

It's obvious that males in women's prisons and sports and rape shelters is insane, and most people would struggle to defend those positions. Toilets and changing rooms, too, the SC judgement has probably brought that into focus.

The very real risks of voyeurs and fetishists seeking access to all those spaces is clear. Safety is an easy requirement. Fairness in sport, ditto. Anyone can see both the risks and the possibility of bad actors abusing the opportunity to 'identify' into those places.

GG and the WI move the focus to slightly more subtle issues, namely social/educational groups.

For girl guides, the argument is "these are children and therefore boys are harmless'. We'll also see a heavy dose of 'poor vulnerable marginalised' here.

For the WI, the argument is that it's just a social, the women aren't vulnerable.

For the GG, there are serious safeguarding issue around camps/sleepovers, but leave that aside for the moment.

Women's and girls' groups, as for single sex spaces, were set up for reasons. Back before the great 3rd wave of feminism, which arguably eroded as many rights as it establshed, it was clear. Girls and women often benefit from the company of other girls and women, without boys or men. Many reasons for this. We think its so obvious it doesnt need explained, but they may all need to be spelled out again.

'Privacy' 'dignity' and 'safety' are easily understood, but single sex associations may need reiterating. These are for equity - to allow.women to talk without inhibition, or interruption, or the verbal equivalent of manspreading. The WI and GG charitable aims will explain them simply, so simply perhaps that we take it for granted.

Women's argument here is quite simple and follows the thinking of the law:

If something is marked 'single sex', as 'for women', then there's a reason for it (LRPG). If you've made a group that expressly excludes men, then it excludes men.

And as the SC found, you can't include 'men in certain clothes' while excluding other men.

The choice is very simple - we either have single sex exemptions, or we don't.

The issues here are men and boys using women and girls for validation or gratification, or 'affirmation', or grooming, and the effects that has on women. It may not on the face of it enable abuse like prisons, loos, etc, but it will undermine and erode women's spaces and groups, inhibit women, and lead many women to self exclude.

This leaves plenty of space for people to argue that sex.segregation is no longer needed and should be scrapped - this would be legal, so if either GG or the WI were to become mixed sex, this would be consistent.

I think it also leaves space for people who've invested in 'be kind' to displace the discomfort and cognitive dissonance they feel at dawning realisation that that argument put rapists in women's prisons, by a very loud defense of how they think we (terfs) are horrible and nasty and they are still kind and pure and good allies, and will openly welcome men into social spaces.

EyesOpening · 07/12/2025 08:18

I do wonder every now and again but then I just think how insane it is to house rapists in women's prisons, to call a woman a bigot if she doesn't want a man providing her intimate care, subject young girls to undressing with boys and to let males compete in women's sports.

I was very open to learning how sex is a spectrum but soon realised how batshit crazy that is when I actually thought about how that would work - if I'm not 100% female, what is the rest of me? Male? Sawdust?
I also recall someone saying how a woman her husband was talking to, complained he was mansplaining to her so he said that he was a woman and the woman became very apologetic or something and I thought how manipulative that was/would be if he actually meant it - just like how some men are, and how fucked up that was and how this the woman couldn't see it, though I did wonder if she had any funny feelings about it!