Excellent speech by Rebecca Paul MP demanding immediate action to remove biological males from women's prisons.

[Childrenofthestones]

Great speech.

Excellent speech. But what is the government doing about this scandal?

Interesting speech.....seeing as she's my local MP, and DD1 is a prison officer in a female prison (although not Downview).

DD1’s view is this (and you probably don’t want to hear it)…..it’s fearmongering to a large degree. It’s allowed only in exceptional circumstances, and the group at Downview are the only ones. Trans prisoners are like any other prisoner, and they are continually and individually risk-assessed, and there’s a lot of intel that goes into this. If any were deemed to be a threat to others (or at risk themselves) they would be kept segregated and/or lose their right to associate; this is absolutely no different to any biological female prisoner who was threatening or violent towards others, or was felt to pose a risk. Incidentally, there are plenty of biological females wandering around our prisons who were convicted of violence towards other women, and of sexual/child abuse offences.

To be clear, this is a tiny group we are talking about, and only in one prison. DD1’s prison has no trans women at all.

However, trans women are between a rock and a hard place. The alternative is for them to go into the male estate, as most do, where they are classed as vulnerable and have to be kept segregated, like paedophiles or child killers are currently. They are not generally safe in the male prison population.

Contrast this with trans men in a female prison - they mix freely with the general population, and there are no issues specifically around them being trans.

Rebecca's comment about protecting prison officer safety was nonsensical, as both male and female officers work across both estates. They are no less “safe” around trans prisoners than they are around the general prison population, many of whom are not nice people.

Her comments about mental health and history of domestic abuse amongst female prisoners were spot on. They are indeed hugely vulnerable.

Thanks for sharing that... some interesting insights.

The bottom line is that no matter how safe and lovely a man may be, women have a right to single sex provision.

The line isn't how many women are broken/how badly are they broken before men get told no, the line is no men in women's prisons. There are many vulnerable groups of men in men's prisons, these men are the responsibility of the male estate. Women are not therapeutic resources for men, women should not have to deal with men's issues and needs because they are women and poor men, women should not lose their privacy and dignity because men have needs and matter more, and as usual in much discussion about the men's niceness/needs/vulnerabilities/issues, there is no mention of the women who contain a very high number of vulnerabilities themselves.

And as always, let the safe nice men in and you've started the wedge that ended with Karen White raping a woman all night having been taken into a women's mental health ward and leaving her with life changing injuries.

Yes these men have needs. Yes those needs should be met. The answer can not ever be 'well lets use women and their resources'. Red line. We tried the 'some under special circumstances' and the fuck up for women led to the SCJ after YEARS of evidencing and fighting. Other solutions are going to have to be found.

You are correct, coin. The idea that these men are vulnerable and the women prisoners dont deserve female only space because some of them are sex offenders is not something we like to hear on a feminist board.

@CointreauVersial Bla bla bla trans women are men, and it is illegal to place them in a female estate

end of debate

Now there may only be a few males left in women’s prisons, but that is because of feminist campaigning.

In recent years some extremely violent men have been placed in women’s prisons after claiming female identities.

If they are not still there, it’s because women haven’t been complacent. Without feminist campaigning, the PP’s daughter would be in a very different situation.

In the U.S the issue of abusive males in women's prisons is a major one. We wouldn't want matters to get that way here through lack of concern.

https://reduxx.info/exclusive-aclu-files-motion-to-have-even-more-male-convicts-moved-to-womens-prison-after-securing-transfer-of-4-trans-identified-male-killers-and-sex-offenders/

https://reduxx.info/exclusive-trans-identified-male-who-strangled-his-mother-to-death-serving-sentence-in-womens-prison-with-mother-baby-unit/

To be clear, I agree with you all, and I agree with the policy changes to outlaw biological male prisoners in the female estate. I'm a big supporter of safe female spaces.

I was just adding some perspective from an insider's point of view. It's not easy either way, and prisons are a particularly challenging area.

You can understand why we are concerned when we are told that prisons officers think its wanting female only prisons is fear mongering?

The ideal place for vulnerable male prisoners is in the male estate which deals with hundreds of vulnerable male prisoners. Women dont need to be involved with their care at all.

It really has to be a clear line now: the needs of these men should and must be met, they are challenging, but the answer can never be to use women's spaces or resources. Total red line. It's been destruction tested.

Time to start building new and different provisions.

They are not generally safe in the male prison population.

Ok they can stop pretending they are women then. Problem solved.

The idea that these appalling men mix freely with women prisoners fills me with horror. They are not women. Women should not be human shields for male criminals.

Trans prisoners are like any other prisoner, and they are continually and individually risk-assessed, and there’s a lot of intel that goes into this. If any were deemed to be a threat to others

What does your dd think about Barbie Kardashian and the violent paedophile being kept in with women in Moreland s d regularly harassing them with their male voices and threats of horrendous violence?

However, trans women are between a rock and a hard place. The alternative is for them to go into the male estate, as most do,

As an interestingly high proportion only discover their ‘trans’ identity after they have initially been arrested, I think it perfectly feasible to keep their new ‘identity’ on the down low while in a male prison. There they can be just like any other of the men. The ones who have had boobs surgically added can be segregated like any other vulnerable male prisoner.

What does your DD think of the fact that the vast majority of women in prison have suffered significant male violence (a frightening number have a measurable brain injury as a result) and would find it extremely traumatising to have to associate with a man as a fellow prisoner?

You could regard it as the thin end of the wedge, but I think it's more like the tail of the dog. The moves are all in the right direction, the policy decision is clear that biological men should be in the male estate, it's just this small wing of trans women who remain somewhat in limbo. Rebecca's right to raise it as an issue, though - it needs to be resolved.

However, contrary to the picture Rebecca paints, this very small group at Downview are not mixing unsupervised and would not be mixing at all if risk assessment says they shouldn't. That's what I meant when I used the word fearmongering. It paints a worse picture than it is.

To be clear, DD's views on trans rights are not the same as mine, but that doesn't affect her ability to do her job. She's not involved in policy decisions, she's just working to keep her women safe and supported, and help them to rehabilitate. This includes the trans man on her wing, who has a deep voice and stubble, and a history of threatening behaviour.......

DD believes that as a prison officer, it is her job to ensure the safe custody of her prisoners, and ensure that ANYONE, regardless of gender/sex who is a danger to others (for whatever reason) is segregated. Properly supervised, no prisoner should be a danger to others.

She's never heard of Barbie Kardashian.

An Officer told me of a trans woman (man) in Downview who jumps up on his bed waving his penis around at staff and prisoners it's intimidating. All trans women should be in the male estate.

The alternative is for them to go into the male estate, as most do, where they are classed as vulnerable and have to be kept segregated, like paedophiles or child killers are currently.

This sounds like the most reasonable solution. Why wouldn't the prison service do that?

The trans women at the male prisons i work at aren't in segregation. They are just getting on with their lives on the wing.

Being trans as an opportunity to piss off the officers and create havoc with your demands seems to have faded a bit but there are definitely prisoners who drop their trans identity on leaving.

There are a lot of very vulnerable men in the male estate. (Worth remembering that some of the most appallingly dangerous in the men's estate are also very vulnerable, the term needs clarifying as to the groups involved.)

The answer is probably to start creating different estates for men who don't present a risk of violence themselves, but are at increased rates of violence from other men prisoners.

Who is it on the government benches shaking their head and making a point of not engaging?
Comes across like a moody teenager

The risk assessment is all about the men and the risks to the prison service, nothing about the women forced to live among these men.

These men have been risk assessed to be almost no risk to women? If the authorities thought they posed no risk, supervision wouldnt be needed.

So the authorities know there is a risk, and know they have to supervise at all times. Its likely that they have just weeded out the high risk offender - those who have a known violent history.

But the individual women haven't been assessed. The prison service havent considered how each women will respond to being forced to live with men.

The idea that its not many men in only one prision isn’t focusing on the correct people. The impact is every women in the prison at the same time as these men.

I'm wondering how the female prisoners feel about men being housed beside them? Has anyone asked them? Does anyone care?

The argument I made on another thread about how just the fear of forced pregnancy is horrific in itself applies just as much to prisons as it does to Girl Guides, if not more so.

I'm far more interested in what female prisoners have to say, not what the screws think.

Here is the link to the Hansard text version:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2025-11-24/debates/39E38194-1453-4B00-B552-2549E0643A42/HMPDownviewFemalePrisoners

From 2021, Richard Garside comments on female child prisoners being held in a male young offender unit:

''I have heard that at least two female child prisoners are currently being held at the male young offender institution at Wetherby. It follows the removal of child prisoners from Rainsbrook secure training centre because of safety and welfare concerns. This is unacceptable.''

''Had the prison service not decided to turn the Josephine Butler Unit at Downview into a unit to hold male prisoners, it could have been an option to house young female prisoners. But instead they are being housed in a male young offender institution. Makes no sense at all.''

archive.fo/B1ExU