Girl Guides existing members

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Is anyone addressing the fact that boys who have already joined the Guides - or who join in the next few days before the policy comes into force - can stay?

I don’t know if they would do this but it’s absolutely feasible and could be a process that they could follow.

i don’t think it’s reasonable to allow boys to stay until summer but allowing them to stay until they break up for Christmas I think would be ok.

Insist on seeing a birth certificate on enrolment.

Activist leaders really put the organisation at risk if they ignore this change. Not every parent will be happy about boys in their daughters groups and they will blow the whistle.

Yes I do know of one in real life. I slightly know the mum, son was in the brownies. Why on earth would you not choose scouts which is mixed sex anyway?

I have some experience of very vulnerable young girls and boys joining youth groups. Depending on their vulnerabilities and how they manifest these children can actually be destructive forces within the groups. Their vulnerability can play out with inappropriate behaviour of a sexual or violent nature.

I also have experience of volunteer leaders who use a limited knowledge of therapy or similar and think they can help such a child but then act in an inappropriate manner and put the child at greater risk. They are in effect using the child’s vulnerability to prop up their own sense of saviour complex.

Of course youth groups can help children build confidence and learn new skills and develop leadership qualities but they shouldn’t be used as therapy for vulnerable children as the leaders are not professionals and they have other children in the group to look after and provide suitable activities for.

I know those seem extreme examples and you may not be thinking of the same levels of vulnerability but a leader who is prepared to put a trans identifying boy ahead of the girls in the group just because he might be seen as vulnerable has no place in GG.

Hard agree with @SternJoyousBeev2 GG is run by volunteers, parents mainly.

It is not and can never be a provision for therapy.

Well said

you don’t treat illness by prescribing paracetamol for the headaches - you deal with the underlying illness and it is no different here - if a child has body dysmorphia you don’t cover it up by humouring them and playing a game pretending they can transition - you deal with the underlying mental health issues…

it is of no long term benefit to the child to pretend they can be the other sex - that way lies body mutilation, chemical castration, child abuse - better to deal with their actual issues…

so organisations like the GG need to stop believing they are being kind when in fact their meddling with young lives will be a contribution to that child’s damage (let alone the collateral fallout for the girls forced to share single sex spaces with a boy…)

great to see this decision finally being made and hopefully it will happen smoothly - though I am sure a few court cases might be needed…

As a volunteer within GG, I have seen an awful lot of people (certainly within my district anyway) who are leaving/withdrawing their support subsequent to this announcement. This will leave many groups without enough leaders and volunteers, and potentially lead to the closure of units entirely. I don't wish to debate about this, each side of the argument has valid concerns and beliefs, and everyone is entitled to their opinion and if people no longer feel that GG is an organisation that they can support due to this then that is entirely their prerogative, they are volunteers afterall. However, will there now be a new influx of volunteers to take their places, now that the rules have been changed? We so desperately struggle to find people to give up their time, and there are obviously a lot of people who feel very passionately about this recent change, so i'm interested to know if anyone is intending to volunteer now? Assuming they weren't before because they disagreed with how it was being run?

I would think that it is going to become much more widely necessary to provide a birth certificate as proof of sex, another disadvantage caused to all by some people insisting on dishonesty and causing others problems through it. Children's birth certificates cannot be altered either to reflect identity rather than fact.

GG and WI have declared their adherence to the law which will mean that they are not legally liable for on the ground leaders who choose to ignore the law and are taken to court by parents. It is not at all difficult to establish the sex of a child and the bottom line is that girls have rights to single sex spaces.

GG are discussing here the plans of new and additional resources which would be mixed sex - how they are going to manage their expressed wish of naming these for women and girls while being in fact mixed sex will be interesting but this is what needs to happen. Choice. The real choice of single sex provision when and as wanted and needed without bullying, threats and legal harassment, and the choice of mixed sex provisions by whatever name.

I would hope that arrangements are made between GG and other local mixed sex groups for current children in GG to sensitively and unhurriedly transition, and for friendship groups to move as blocks if the children want this. But it is realistically going to be a one off event affecting a small number of boys but benefitting the entire girl population of GG. It's sad that Stonewall law got these children into this situation that now has to be undone.

Shit! I thought that we grew out of taking our bat and ball home at about the age of 10. These 'adults' would fuck off whole units of GGs just to show their disrespect for the law.

I have just run out of words.

"If we can't have the boys we will abandon the girls."

Says it all.

I think it is more nuanced than that, but as I said, i'm not getting into a debate about it, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am merely asking if people will be volunteering now?

Doesn't answer my question.

If there was an enthusiastic embracing again of working for girls and not seeing this as a grudging second best? And the safeguarding was properly sorted? I might consider returning.

Parents pay subs.
Parents know if they gave birth to a boy or a girl.
If a girl, pay subs and stay.
If a boy, sod off to the scouts.

Every child knows what sex they are.

Has GG said anywhere that it apologises and welcomes the return of all the members it lost because of this policy and its abusive enforcement? No.

Would you volunteer for an organisation that has been so begrudging about complying with the law? That has already issued subsequent communications saying they intend to "evolve" the offering to accommodate boys? That has treated gender critical members so appallingly and has doubled down instead of apologising?

Would you trust such an organisation? Feel they would have your back if you volunteered for them?

GG has bridges to mend and at the moment it is napalming them instead. It is going to lose members who support the proper application of single sex status through this behaviour, so I am not sure why you would expect more new members to be attracted by this nasty behaviour.

I say that as a decades-long member of GG who feels betrayed by the way they are handling this.

Would you not consider returning and fighting for change from the inside? If it is something you are passionate about?

Also, your position is rather close to "no debate". In the context, do you think that is helpful when you are demanding people answer your question on your terms without reciprocity from you?

Show me where GG are listening to any of its members who support genuine single sex status, rather than doubling down and painting them as the enemy.

I discussed this at Virgin Active re: changing rooms. They said they have no idea which members are trans as passports or driving licenses can be changed.

The local group is certainly struggling for volunteers and did so long before this, as does every youth group and every organisation requiring challenging volunteer commitment.

To answer your question - no I’m not planning to volunteer at the moment, either before or after this event. I did 3 years as a Woodcraft Folk leader as I wanted a mixed sex group for my ds, and frankly it was incredibly hard work that I don’t want to repeat, though I’m glad I did it.

Id imagine that there might well be clusters of children who are gender-questioning in certain areas, so that there may be some groups where this is significant. I have a lot of sympathy with anyone who is volunteering in this area and who believes they are doing something good by using girls as a support system for vulnerable boys. I think they’re wrong, but I still sympathise.

I think many did that and found it didn't work. In fact many women have tried that against this political movement in many spheres and found it didn't work.

I can't remember without checking if the SCJ specifically referenced this or whether it was discussion around it, but I seem to remember that a single sex service can refuse anyone they are not confident is of that sex, and re direct them to a mixed sex service or resource. If the person wanted to take this to court the onus would be on them to prove their sex, and rather more depth of inquiry would have to take place in that case such as previous history of documents.

It's about the right of the group as a whole to have a space based on their characteristic and legal discrimination to protect it as being only that characteristic, the shield, not the right of an individual to entry.

GG will clarify the rules. Leaders will be told what to do and despite all this bluster I think they will comply. Anyone really bothered should leave.
I think the likelihood of a transgirl going under the radar is vanishingly small.
I note in SM that Scouts are posting frequently and emphasising their inclusiveness so maybe people feeling unwelcome by GG will take up their offer.

I completely understand why you would feel this way. However, if units end up closing, then no one benefits. I was with my unit earlier today, 20 wonderful girls who absolutely adore our meetings (my daughter included!), and it would be so sad if groups like mine ended up closing. There have been a lot of posts about this on MN, and a lot of parents who are happy about this decision who have girls in guiding, who were in it before the change, so i'm hopeful maybe they will step in and volunteer. I appreciate it is a complex and difficult situation with a lot of history and strong opinions on both sides, I don't blame anyone for leaving or for not wanting to volunteer, but I just hope that some people can and do and units are able to stay open.