Girl Guides existing members

[magentafox]

Is anyone addressing the fact that boys who have already joined the Guides - or who join in the next few days before the policy comes into force - can stay?

Policy.
On signing up to waiting list and on entrance parents to sign to say their child is female.
Parents of all existing members also to have sign this declaration too.
In case of any concern the child is actually male, leaders must ask to see the original birth certificate.

@magentafox
Children will be asked for an identity document (birth certificate or passport)
Job Done.

Membership is a contract.

I have been involved in youth organisations that have removed children for behavioural issues. It happens with immediate effect. Youth leaders are not social workers or child therapists.

Units closed sometimes at short notice due to loss of sufficient adults and although the kids and their parents may be signposted to another local unit within the same organisation it wasn’t a weaning or phased move.

It is not the responsibility of the GG to “wean” a boy from GG or to facilitate a managed handover to another completely unrelated youth organisation. That is the responsibility of the boys parents/guardians; not of volunteers.

This isn’t just a change of an internally controlled policy. This is GG finally acknowledging what many many former volunteers have been telling them for years, that there are not operating within the constraints of their charitable status and they can no longer deny this fact.

A few weeks grace period to allow them to get their ducks in a row would be reasonable but any more than that would not.

The fact that they made the announcement last week without being able to advise the next steps for current members is I think telling. They needed to be a “with immediate effect” announcement to ensure no new boys were enrolled so o think they have been given legal advice that swift action is required.

The parents of every boy in GG knows that their child is a boy. The comms (even if delivered locally) will come from GGHQ

It’s still not the responsibility of GG or the volunteers who support the organisation to provide on going support to these young boys irrespective of how vulnerable they may be. At most they will get signposted to actual support services via a hastily pulled together leaflet that will accompany formal written notification of their removal from GGHq.

The requirement will be

"I am signing my female child up to be a member of GG and providing proof of her age eligibility and sex eligibility"

I do hope those of you who think it will be as simple as a parent signing something to say 'my child is female' and flashing a birth cert are right. But I am less confident. Parents of trans girls believe their male children are female. They aren't suddenly going to accept that's all nonsense and will keep arguing that female is what ever an individual wants it to be. Volunteers checking birth certificates also raises a range of issues, from verification (not all children have photographic ID) to recording and training. The GG's intention to consult seems to me to be intended to string this all out and will inevitably result in a lot of handwringing about how difficult it all is to remove anyone.

Proof of age is required to join Air Cadets and Army Cadets. A quick google search indicates that proof of age is also required to Rainbows (I assume same applies to the other groups under the GGUk umbrella ) and Scouts.

What document would provide proof of date of birth but not include sex?

It might be an administrative pain in the arse but if they truly do not hold accurate records and only record ‘gender’ they may have to insist on saying birth certificates for all members in order to update all records. Under GDPR regs what justification would they have for holding /processing information relating to ‘gender’ but not sex?

There may be rabid activists with the organisation who will want to disrupt any actions that will the result in boys being removed and they will probably be supported by the misguided be kind brigade who don’t see any harm in 6 year Johnny/Jilly joining in with his friends. But there must have been some adults who have joined in the conversations at the highest levels for last weeks announcement to have been made. They may or may not have agreed to the revolting tone of the announcement but may have green lighted it in order to satisfy the be kinders.

I think it’s too early to determine that no boy who is already in the organisation will be removed. Let’s see what this upcoming week brings.

@magentafox
EVERY child will have a birth certificate.
If a parent produces a falsified birth certificate, that is breach of contract.

Money changes hands to join GG
Its pure and simple contract law.

If another parent says "that is a boy" then the onus is on the fraudulent parent
NOT the GG volunteer.

Parents of trans identified boys know full well what they wiped during nappy changing.

One wonders what the matter is with these people (leaders)?

@SternJoyousBeev2 your point about GDPR and recording gender vs recording sex is a really good one. That will be worth deploying when what I predict will happen actually happens.

@Talkinpeaceyou've really missed the point. And also seem to be living in some sort of fantasy land. We're well past reasoning with parents who "know full well what they wiped".

@magentafox
This is contract law.
Parents sign the contract.
If they lie, the contract is void.
If GG allow contract breakers to stay, they will be sued by other parents.

Entitled arrogant parents will need to grow up.

ALSO the men LARPing into female helper spaces will need to go.

The thing to remember is that last week GGUk had to finally publicly acknowledge and recognise that theirs is a single sex organisation.
Yes the announcement was focused on the wrong group of children but most of the posters on FWR are only too aware of how badly and unhinged TRAs can behave when they don’t get their own way so there could have been an element of self protection in the way they chose to issue their statement.

Parents do know what sex their child is, most are not pretending that sex doesn’t exist just that gender identity is more important.

What I'm detecting though is a shift (yes another one!) in the focus of the trans narrative. Away from 'I have changed/ want to change sex so it better matches my gender identity' to 'I am already the opposite sex but my outer flesh may simply be in need of some adjustment'. I know this isn't new, but India Willoughby has only started saying he's a biological woman this year and Helen Webberley's recent PR run was all focused on proposing children simply are what they say they are.

GG aren't going to announce anything this week. In a couple of weeks they'll say they need to consult members. We'll all forget about it over Christmas. Sometime next year they'll launch a consultation which will take months and months. Then perhaps they'll issue a 'policy' on how to deal with existing members. Perhaps also say they are considering moving to a unisex model, but that will take time (Royal Charter etc) and don't want to do anything hasty to exclude existing members who may be vulnerable etc etc.

Hopefully I am completely wrong! But just making a prediction here for posterity!

The law was the law on April 16th
GG are in liability land

I think that Ordinary People in the street who are prepared to ‘live and let live’ when it comes to someone’s declared gender identity do so because they don’t personally recognise gender identity so go along with the idea of someone else claiming to have a GI that is different to their biological sex because it doesn’t impact on them personally and haven’t give it enough thought to argue against it.

But Ordinary People know their own sex and the sex of all their friends and family members. They know that there are only two sexes and that no one can change sex. They will not have the same attitude to anyone that has fathered a child claiming that they have always been biologically female. IW is an irrelevant but nasty wee prick and HW is a lunatic who is even too much of a lunatic for the folks of Reddit.

The GG story won’t go away. It might not all get resolved and tied up into a neat parcel in time for Christmas. Their statement last week makes it clear that they know they are on dodgy legal grounds. I predict that the legal action they were facing will not disappear if they try delaying tactics. I imagine they have tried all the mental gymnastics and their lawyers have told them that it won’t work.

What responsible parent of any child would deliberately sign them up for an activity they aren’t eligible for? Why choose a single sex group for a gender questioning child? Knowing, as they must do, that —very few— not all children persist in this?

What responsible group leader would take them on?

Not staff. Volunteers.
Volunteers running an activity club.

So are many other organisations. The Women's Rights Network are doing a campaign about the big supermarkets over Christmas. The entire Civil Service. Lots more.

And when people do have the time, money, stamina and thick enough skin to sue, they aren't guaranteed that FWS will ensure a fair outcome. See Maria Kelly and Leonardo.

@SternJoyousBeev2 I hope you are right. But yeh, GG are not doing this willingly or in the right spirit. I predict parents and trans girls will have similar levels of ire at this and won't just remove their boys and walk away quietly.

Been happening for years!!

The fact they are not doing it willingly or in the right spirit IMO only adds weight to my theory that their legal advice indicates dire consequences for them if they don’t act.

So the parents won’t get a choice. Their children will be removed from the organisation.

Hmm, so the next step is asking for people to volunteer for a 'Taskforce'. Volunteers obviously have to submit interest, have some selection process, set up, agreement of terms of reference, agree meeting dates, actually meet, talk talk talk...

Yeh existing male members aren't going anywhere.