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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 11:51

PinkFootstool · 03/12/2025 11:37

That person was clearly an absolute nightmare employee. A teacher no less. Complaining that a website recording how many women die at the hands of men is somehow transphobic. And that a teacher who is GC has views that are a safeguarding issue.

Couldn't invigilate an exam as it made them anxious, and wanted all students to wear masks to help with their anxiety.

Didn't turn up to parents eve and stated it was the fault of their medication and that any investigation into this was victimisation.

Described as aggressive

Subjected to students to physical forfeits.. (disputed)

Decided even discussing men in women's sport was transphobic and a safeguarding concern

One wonders whether they also challenged the traditional accommodations within the school re sport and changing?

I really hope this person was properly investigated as being reported to the LADO should surely lead to the GTC being involved?

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:54

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 11:37

Do we know how the time line works.

ie are we now past the point that Carol Pottter resigning would have been because they have seen the report?

It is over two weeks since she resigned. It is therefore highly unlikely that she has seen the judgement.

ShamedBySiri · 03/12/2025 12:00

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:19

To be fair to Wikipedia, it reflects the general view of trans issues in Europe (outside the UK) and North America. Gender critical views have achieved far more traction in the UK than in most other countries. The GC movement is widely regarded as transphobic and a source of disinformation. The UK only produces around 5% of Wikipedia's traffic. I may be wrong, but I suspect that we would see a shift on Wikipedia if GC views get more traction in the USA and Canada, which I hope will happen soon. More traction in Europe is definitely needed, otherwise there is a risk that the EHRC could effectively walk back FWS.

Having said that, it is possible to get things corrected, although probably not this page at the moment. I had some involvement in a battle with an editor who repeatedly edited the page about the Maya Forstater case. Before MF won her appeal, this editor repeatedly altered the article to remove any references to reactions criticising the original judgement on the grounds that these were "point of view pushing", whilst leaving reactions supporting it intact, arguing that this was a "neutral point of view". That editor eventually lost and is now permanently banned from editing Wikipedia.

Edited

Interesting discussion on the Andrew Gold Heretics YouTube channel about the workings of Wikipedia.
It’s one thing to know it may be inaccurate but the extent to which it is captured and utilised to manipulate the narrative was shocking new news for me.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
Bluebootsgreenboots · 03/12/2025 12:06

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:54

It is over two weeks since she resigned. It is therefore highly unlikely that she has seen the judgement.

She timed her resignation so she didn't even have to read the judgement.

PinkFootstool · 03/12/2025 12:30

Bluebootsgreenboots · 03/12/2025 12:06

She timed her resignation so she didn't even have to read the judgement.

She isn't stepping down with immediate effect - she's there until summer 2026.

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 12:32

Bluebootsgreenboots · 03/12/2025 12:06

She timed her resignation so she didn't even have to read the judgement.

She’s getting ahead of it.

Forced to own up to issuing the statement and being sued by Sandie was enough.

KnottyAuty · 03/12/2025 13:05

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:19

To be fair to Wikipedia, it reflects the general view of trans issues in Europe (outside the UK) and North America. Gender critical views have achieved far more traction in the UK than in most other countries. The GC movement is widely regarded as transphobic and a source of disinformation. The UK only produces around 5% of Wikipedia's traffic. I may be wrong, but I suspect that we would see a shift on Wikipedia if GC views get more traction in the USA and Canada, which I hope will happen soon. More traction in Europe is definitely needed, otherwise there is a risk that the EHRC could effectively walk back FWS.

Having said that, it is possible to get things corrected, although probably not this page at the moment. I had some involvement in a battle with an editor who repeatedly edited the page about the Maya Forstater case. Before MF won her appeal, this editor repeatedly altered the article to remove any references to reactions criticising the original judgement on the grounds that these were "point of view pushing", whilst leaving reactions supporting it intact, arguing that this was a "neutral point of view". That editor eventually lost and is now permanently banned from editing Wikipedia.

Edited

I’m not sure about this. I was slapped down and threatened with an immediate ban for removal of the word lesbian from a male’s page on Wikipedia. I found it alarming for various reasons. But when I checked the volunteers involved were all uk based. It’s completely captured by neurodivergent computer blokes who presumably used to cross dress at weekends but now are “trans

I got the strong impression they might be some of the last soldiers standing as they do this in their spare time and seem to be true believers

KnottyAuty · 03/12/2025 13:07

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:19

To be fair to Wikipedia, it reflects the general view of trans issues in Europe (outside the UK) and North America. Gender critical views have achieved far more traction in the UK than in most other countries. The GC movement is widely regarded as transphobic and a source of disinformation. The UK only produces around 5% of Wikipedia's traffic. I may be wrong, but I suspect that we would see a shift on Wikipedia if GC views get more traction in the USA and Canada, which I hope will happen soon. More traction in Europe is definitely needed, otherwise there is a risk that the EHRC could effectively walk back FWS.

Having said that, it is possible to get things corrected, although probably not this page at the moment. I had some involvement in a battle with an editor who repeatedly edited the page about the Maya Forstater case. Before MF won her appeal, this editor repeatedly altered the article to remove any references to reactions criticising the original judgement on the grounds that these were "point of view pushing", whilst leaving reactions supporting it intact, arguing that this was a "neutral point of view". That editor eventually lost and is now permanently banned from editing Wikipedia.

Edited

This is interesting - can you outline the steps you took to get this resolved please?

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 13:47

KnottyAuty · 03/12/2025 13:07

This is interesting - can you outline the steps you took to get this resolved please?

My involvement was limited. I don't take any credit for the page being correct or the user ultimately being banned. I simply contributed to the discussion on the talk page about the MF case, supporting the inclusion of references to comments critical of the original judgement. The poster permanent ban actually arose out of the editor concerned making a complaint about another user on the Administrator's noticeboard. This led to discussion about the editor's behaviour which in turn led to the ban.

Wikipedia proceeds by consensus and based on authoritative sources. If GC editors can point to authoritative sources supporting their edits and can generate consensus around those edits, they will win. However, the goal should not be to make Wikipedia something that supports GC views. It's goal is a neutral point of view. That is what we should aim for. A neutral point of view is, of course, difficult and will always be criticised. Someone with fascist beliefs might object to coverage that non-fascists would regard as unexceptional, for example.

By the way, I haven't watched the Andrew Gold video, but I'm not sure I would take the word of someone who defends the right of UK football fans to racially abuse Jewish players.

moto748e · 03/12/2025 13:52

Saying people can't change sex isn't a 'view', though, it's a fact.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 03/12/2025 14:26

ProfessorBinturong · 03/12/2025 10:39

Indeed.

This is the image I get in my head whenever I see a post from Howse! 😂

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 14:44

moto748e · 03/12/2025 13:52

Saying people can't change sex isn't a 'view', though, it's a fact.

Wikipedia - Can you point to authoritative sources that say it is a fact? And what about these articles in reputable scientific journals that say people can change sex?

Of course, I agree with you. Just pointing out how a simple statement like this will be treated in Wikipedia. However self evident we think something is, when there are articles in reputable sources disagreeing, we have a battle to defend the truth. Wikipedia is unlikely to be the right place to fight that battle. It needs to be won elsewhere. Once it is, it will be possible to change Wikipedia to reflect that.

MarieDeGournay · 03/12/2025 14:46

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 11:51

Couldn't invigilate an exam as it made them anxious, and wanted all students to wear masks to help with their anxiety.

Didn't turn up to parents eve and stated it was the fault of their medication and that any investigation into this was victimisation.

Described as aggressive

Subjected to students to physical forfeits.. (disputed)

Decided even discussing men in women's sport was transphobic and a safeguarding concern

One wonders whether they also challenged the traditional accommodations within the school re sport and changing?

I really hope this person was properly investigated as being reported to the LADO should surely lead to the GTC being involved?

'Foucault-addled grievance gerbil' springs to mind, but probably minus the Foucault.

That's the origin of the gerbils in the Bluestocking Pub, you know - there were
t-shirts that said 'Foucault-addled grievance gerbil' and then the gerbils set up factories to make the t-shirts themselves, and then they diversified into hospitality ... They have a heroic history!

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 03/12/2025 14:48

😮

ProfessorThreeWordHarpy · 03/12/2025 14:53

@ProfLargofesse

Quite often women succeed in boardrooms and in institutions because they work within patriarchal systems, upholding them. It is still a requirement, I think, of moving up the ranks that women don't get uppity, that they don't challenge systems or system patriarchal modes of operation. It is all unspoken yet accepted

Absolutely. One organisation I worked for was very diverse in its 150+ workforce. Properly diverse by sex, race, age, religion, sexuality, physical disability etc. The leadership team were 7 middle aged straight men, six white and one black, and one middle aged white straight woman. The woman in the leadership team displayed the same stereotypical “alpha male” behaviour as the men. She was a bloody nightmare to work with, constantly trying to “win” any interaction.

The leadership were shocked when I said I thought their culture was misogynistic, pointing to the wonderfully diverse set of colleagues that I had. In my opinion though, they only valued the stereotypical male behaviours in the organisations “leaders”, and someone who had different but effective management styles (like my female, black, manager or her male, gay, colleague) were consistently overlooked. Because they did not have the inclination to get involved in the unproductive willy waving that went on in the c-suite, and focused on getting the job done.

ShamedBySiri · 03/12/2025 15:25

By the way, I haven't watched the Andrew Gold video, but I'm not sure I would take the word of someone who defends the right of UK football fans to racially abuse Jewish players.

I may well have missed it but towards the end of the video he talks about the nonsense of virtue signalling at football matches. He is of course Jewish. So I’d be surprised if he supports racial abuse of Jewish players. Or did you mean the man being interviewed?

Peregrina · 03/12/2025 15:41

Claim dismissed
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69303e1bcdec734f4dff4197/B_M_Kelly_v_Leonardo_UK_Limited_-_8001497.2025.pdf

This is very sad. Leonardo put forward an absolutely hopeless case but they are now free to make the Ladies loos mixed sexed while the men's still have their own. Or have I misread this?

Still we must fight on.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69303e1bcdec734f4dff4197/B_M_Kelly_v_Leonardo_UK_Limited_-_8001497.2025.pdf

Chersfrozenface · 03/12/2025 15:44

Peregrina · 03/12/2025 15:41

Claim dismissed
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69303e1bcdec734f4dff4197/B_M_Kelly_v_Leonardo_UK_Limited_-_8001497.2025.pdf

This is very sad. Leonardo put forward an absolutely hopeless case but they are now free to make the Ladies loos mixed sexed while the men's still have their own. Or have I misread this?

Still we must fight on.

And yet you get endless hand-wringing questions asking "Why don't more women go into engineering?"

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 15:48

MarieDeGournay · 03/12/2025 14:46

'Foucault-addled grievance gerbil' springs to mind, but probably minus the Foucault.

That's the origin of the gerbils in the Bluestocking Pub, you know - there were
t-shirts that said 'Foucault-addled grievance gerbil' and then the gerbils set up factories to make the t-shirts themselves, and then they diversified into hospitality ... They have a heroic history!

Absolutely!

Coffeeandcataddict · 03/12/2025 17:16

Peregrina · 03/12/2025 15:41

Claim dismissed
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69303e1bcdec734f4dff4197/B_M_Kelly_v_Leonardo_UK_Limited_-_8001497.2025.pdf

This is very sad. Leonardo put forward an absolutely hopeless case but they are now free to make the Ladies loos mixed sexed while the men's still have their own. Or have I misread this?

Still we must fight on.

I don’t understand how this is in line with the Supreme Court Judgement. Can an employment tribunal over ride what the Supreme Court said?

SqueakyDinosaur · 03/12/2025 17:18

Maya has posted on X saying that it's an opportunity to appeal and get it embedded in law.

socool · 03/12/2025 17:18

After the Leonardo decision to dismiss, I'm wary about Peggie.

But I shouldn't be should I, it's a slam dunk right?

Firefumes · 03/12/2025 17:19

socool · 03/12/2025 17:18

After the Leonardo decision to dismiss, I'm wary about Peggie.

But I shouldn't be should I, it's a slam dunk right?

No employment tribunal case is ever a slam dunk.

socool · 03/12/2025 17:21

Firefumes · 03/12/2025 17:19

No employment tribunal case is ever a slam dunk.

You know what I mean, it looks like SP will win, there are 55+ threads about it parsing and analysing every word, there is confidence in abundance that she will win her case.

I'm just wary.

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