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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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49
SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 03:03

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 03/12/2025 00:48

The July Press Release wan't a one-off either. Or even a four-off, if that was the number of iterations.

I just looked back to our Feb threads because I had a vague memory of an internal document from Carol Potter that covered at least some of the same material and I found this post by @IStandWithSandie:

IStandwithSandie · 18/02/2025 21:00

NHS Fife staff receive a monthly communication from the Chief Exec; this month’s (sent out yesterday) mentions the tribunal (copied & pasted excerpt below):

I want to take a moment to acknowledge the challenging period we are navigating as an organisation. The ongoing and highly publicised employment tribunal in recent weeks has understandably generated a great deal of interest and debate, both in the media and online.

With the hearing now being extended into July, I fully appreciate the impact this continued scrutiny is having on colleagues across NHS Fife.

For obvious reasons, we are unable to comment on legal proceedings. As a public sector body, we are bound by strict legal and ethical responsibilities, which means we cannot engage in public debate through blogs, media briefings, or social media. However, I want to reassure you that NHS Fife remains committed to fairness, integrity, and respect for all involved.

Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture.

At the heart of this situation are valued members of NHS Fife staff and it is essential that they are treated with dignity, respect, and kindness.

As an organisation, we place our trust in the independent legal process and will await its ruling in due course.

Good sleuthing as ever - I’m in awe of your power of recall.

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2025 08:11

At the heart of this situation are valued members of NHS Fife staff and it is essential that they are treated with dignity, respect, and kindness.

Ditto @ProfessorBettyBooper that this snarky and pointed comment suggests no lessons have been learned through the tribunal, that Dr U is the valued member being treated with respect, and that it is unlikely that kindness is extended to the nurse that brought NHS Fifes disrespect of women into the full light of day.

These conspiracy believers will never shift their view that TW are the most fragile and vulnerable members of society needing their protection. For women, is it a mother Theresa variation of a messiah complex?

Ketchupmunchies · 03/12/2025 09:05

DrBlackbird · 01/12/2025 20:58

The thing is, these women genuinely - and there are many many of them - and wholly believe that they are the right and that it is the likes of SP who are narrow minded bigots. And nothing and no one will move them from the position that it is the worst thing in the world not to be kind and inclusive. Thinking stops there.

I’m sure that in every other facet of her life, Potter is absolutely lovely. Genderism is a huge blind spot, a lacuna that cannot be acknowledged or filled as to do shakes the very foundation of beliefs on equality and diversity.

This is so true - I was on the train yesterday opposite a perfectly normal looking woman, whose laptop had a sticker like this staring me in the face:
https://www.amazon.com/Sticker-Colors-Weather-Resistant-Bottles-Laptop/dp/B0CBQFVHM1
I’m sure she is thinking how wonderful and #bekind she is, and on the right side of history bla bla bla, but it just made me feel Angry instead of safe.

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Sticker-Colors-Weather-Resistant-Bottles-Laptop/dp/B0CBQFVHM1?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-womens-rights-5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55

Lovaduck74 · 03/12/2025 09:24

It just blows my mind when a woman adopts that viewpoint. Even if you are lucky enough to not have been the victim of male aggression ( and most women have experience of this) how can you negate other women's safety like that? I know of someone and she keeps banging on about how persecuted and fragile TW are. ...she has daughters for goodness sake! Madness

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 03/12/2025 09:35

When I see stickers like that I'm immediately suspicious. As for 'persecuted and fragile' that really is the joke of the century, isn't it.

PinkFootstool · 03/12/2025 09:42

Ketchupmunchies · 03/12/2025 09:05

This is so true - I was on the train yesterday opposite a perfectly normal looking woman, whose laptop had a sticker like this staring me in the face:
https://www.amazon.com/Sticker-Colors-Weather-Resistant-Bottles-Laptop/dp/B0CBQFVHM1
I’m sure she is thinking how wonderful and #bekind she is, and on the right side of history bla bla bla, but it just made me feel Angry instead of safe.

Can't see it, it wants to switch my account to Amazon USA to view it....

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 03/12/2025 09:47

It's one of those 'you are safe with me' stickers.

DontStopMe · 03/12/2025 09:47

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 03/12/2025 09:35

When I see stickers like that I'm immediately suspicious. As for 'persecuted and fragile' that really is the joke of the century, isn't it.

I react the same way to anyone saying "Trust me". If you have to say it, you know people have good reasons not to trust you.

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 09:50

More random TRA ET judgement finds:

https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/j-andrews-v-princethorpe-foundation-and-others-1301937-slash-2022-and-1302647-slash-2022

This TW reported a school for distributing a questionnaire for a student who was studying TW participation in women's sports as a safeguarding concern and stated Karen Ingalla-Smith to be anti-trans.

I can only find the interim and not final judgement so not sure what happened in the end

J Andrews v Princethorpe Foundation and Others: 1301937/2022 and 1302647/2022

Employment Tribunal decision.

https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/j-andrews-v-princethorpe-foundation-and-others-1301937-slash-2022-and-1302647-slash-2022

SternJoyousBeev2 · 03/12/2025 10:05

Ketchupmunchies · 03/12/2025 09:05

This is so true - I was on the train yesterday opposite a perfectly normal looking woman, whose laptop had a sticker like this staring me in the face:
https://www.amazon.com/Sticker-Colors-Weather-Resistant-Bottles-Laptop/dp/B0CBQFVHM1
I’m sure she is thinking how wonderful and #bekind she is, and on the right side of history bla bla bla, but it just made me feel Angry instead of safe.

Utterly grim and totally performative. Someone who identifies as kind and has no kindness for 51% of humanity.

ProfLargofesse · 03/12/2025 10:09

Lovaduck74 · 03/12/2025 09:24

It just blows my mind when a woman adopts that viewpoint. Even if you are lucky enough to not have been the victim of male aggression ( and most women have experience of this) how can you negate other women's safety like that? I know of someone and she keeps banging on about how persecuted and fragile TW are. ...she has daughters for goodness sake! Madness

I think internally they had all agreed amongst themselves, based on gossip and spite, that SP was a racist transphobic bigot and so was not worthy of their kindness. The fact that in her professionalism as a nurse there was absolutely no evidence that this was the case across a 30-year career means little to them.

This has long been part of the issue, the classification of women (in the main part) as having less value for some reason annointed (in the main part) by men. In the broader paradigm it seems fairly obvious to me (inexpert) that the TRA ideology has been the most successful Trojan Horse since Troy and coming so sharp on the back of increasingly public fights for equal pay for women suggests a greater political beast hiding within the horse.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, of course, the useful idiots can't conspire themselves out of a paper bag without the help of Stonewall who proved quite good at it TBH, but within the paradigm of patriarchy where the value of women in spheres outside the home/ mother role (and even within those spheres too) is to be adjudicated by the patriarchy (which, of course, also includes women) it has conveniently operated as a massive fuckin lever to upset the work feminism has done in challenging how value is afforded to women within societal structures.

It has become, through this TRA ideology, increasingly easy to cabin, crib and confine women's sense of their own authority, to limit their sense of being free to speak as feminists, and some men too of course, and when that happens the feminist aims are immediately traduced.

Quite often women succeed in boardrooms and in institutions because they work within patriarchal systems, upholding them. It is still a requirement, I think, of moving up the ranks that women don't get uppity, that they don't challenge systems or system patriarchal modes of operation. It is all unspoken yet accepted. I think Carol Potter illustrates this perfectly and the NHS might have many more women on the board but those are, largely, patriarchal women, of whom patriarchy depends and not feminists and the result is that the labour of women in the NHS is still hugely de-valued in comparison to the labour of me and doubled when it comes to hierarchical positions which is why Upton matters so much more to the board than Peggie. And many of us know without a shadow of a doubt that if the situation had involved a doctor who was a trans man in the men's changing room that Dr/woman would not have been afforded anything like the same value as Upton.

Potter has been,, in my view, invested in upholding the patriarchy and things that holding up TRA men like Upton as veils somehow hides that fact.

It doesn't.

Her departure won't change that but I bet they replace her with a man.

SidewaysOtter · 03/12/2025 10:11

Right, Big Sond, listen up.

It's Christmas and we women have got shit to do. Presents don't buy themselves, food doesn't magically arrive and that's before we've had to spend 20 minutes finding the end of the bastarding sellotape.

So could you GET A BLOODY MOVE ON?

MyrtleLion · 03/12/2025 10:12

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 09:50

More random TRA ET judgement finds:

https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/j-andrews-v-princethorpe-foundation-and-others-1301937-slash-2022-and-1302647-slash-2022

This TW reported a school for distributing a questionnaire for a student who was studying TW participation in women's sports as a safeguarding concern and stated Karen Ingalla-Smith to be anti-trans.

I can only find the interim and not final judgement so not sure what happened in the end

It's an application for interim relief, rather than an interim judgment. This means the claimant is saying I've been sacked unfairly because I am a whistleblower and the company has to keep paying me until this is resolved. These cases are held relatively quickly after the dismissal.

She applied for interim relief in May 2022 and this case was heard in June 2022. She must have been dismissed between May because claimants have seven days to apply.

There may not have been a full hearing because this judgment found she was unlikely to win her unfair dismissal case. I suspect because she had less than two years' service.

She also had to prove that the whistleblowing was the direct cause of her dismissal.

ProfessorBinturong · 03/12/2025 10:39

DontStopMe · 03/12/2025 09:47

I react the same way to anyone saying "Trust me". If you have to say it, you know people have good reasons not to trust you.

the jungle book trap GIF

Indeed.

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 10:54

MyrtleLion · 03/12/2025 10:12

It's an application for interim relief, rather than an interim judgment. This means the claimant is saying I've been sacked unfairly because I am a whistleblower and the company has to keep paying me until this is resolved. These cases are held relatively quickly after the dismissal.

She applied for interim relief in May 2022 and this case was heard in June 2022. She must have been dismissed between May because claimants have seven days to apply.

There may not have been a full hearing because this judgment found she was unlikely to win her unfair dismissal case. I suspect because she had less than two years' service.

She also had to prove that the whistleblowing was the direct cause of her dismissal.

Thanks for explaining.

There seems to be some solid reasons for dismissal - not turning up to parents eve, insisting all pupils wear masks because it makes them anxious if they don't, not wanting to invigilate exams because of their anxiety....

A TW insisting that no one in the school discusses the participation of TiM in women's sport, or Ingalla-Smith's work on VAWG because they feel it is transphobic would be pretty hard work I imagine. It seems they also felt anyone even mentioning that someone has GC views was reported as a safeguarding issue.

I've only skim read it but will take more time when I have a mo

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:00

MyrtleLion · 03/12/2025 10:12

It's an application for interim relief, rather than an interim judgment. This means the claimant is saying I've been sacked unfairly because I am a whistleblower and the company has to keep paying me until this is resolved. These cases are held relatively quickly after the dismissal.

She applied for interim relief in May 2022 and this case was heard in June 2022. She must have been dismissed between May because claimants have seven days to apply.

There may not have been a full hearing because this judgment found she was unlikely to win her unfair dismissal case. I suspect because she had less than two years' service.

She also had to prove that the whistleblowing was the direct cause of her dismissal.

As the claimant had less than two years service, the only way she could win is if her dismissal was for an automatically unfair reason. In this case, she argued that she was dismissed for making protected disclosures. As you say, she needed to show that the protected disclosures were the reason for her dismissal (or, if there were multiple reasons, the main reason). The tribunal took the view that it was not clear that the claimant's disclosures were protected and, even if they were, the claimant had not established that there was a causal connection between the disclosures and her dismissal. The claimant could have proceeded and tried to come up with more evidence at the final hearing to show that at least one of her disclosures was protected and that this was the reason for her dismissal. However, the lack of any further judgements suggests that the claimant gave up after losing her application for interim relief, which would have forced the Foundation to continue employing her.

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 11:19

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 01/12/2025 17:48

Anyone else a bit shocked at the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on Sex Matters?

"Sex Matters is a British anti-transgender advocacy group. The organization was founded in 2021 to oppose transgender rights in the United Kingdom."

Biased much? (And also clearly American, going by the spelling.)

Edited

To be fair to Wikipedia, it reflects the general view of trans issues in Europe (outside the UK) and North America. Gender critical views have achieved far more traction in the UK than in most other countries. The GC movement is widely regarded as transphobic and a source of disinformation. The UK only produces around 5% of Wikipedia's traffic. I may be wrong, but I suspect that we would see a shift on Wikipedia if GC views get more traction in the USA and Canada, which I hope will happen soon. More traction in Europe is definitely needed, otherwise there is a risk that the EHRC could effectively walk back FWS.

Having said that, it is possible to get things corrected, although probably not this page at the moment. I had some involvement in a battle with an editor who repeatedly edited the page about the Maya Forstater case. Before MF won her appeal, this editor repeatedly altered the article to remove any references to reactions criticising the original judgement on the grounds that these were "point of view pushing", whilst leaving reactions supporting it intact, arguing that this was a "neutral point of view". That editor eventually lost and is now permanently banned from editing Wikipedia.

PinkFootstool · 03/12/2025 11:21

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 03/12/2025 09:47

It's one of those 'you are safe with me' stickers.

Ugh.

Tiddler1976 · 03/12/2025 11:26

DontStopMe · 03/12/2025 09:47

I react the same way to anyone saying "Trust me". If you have to say it, you know people have good reasons not to trust you.

I used to have an ex who kept telling me he was a really nice guy.

Newsflash, he was not a really nice guy.

CarefulN0w · 03/12/2025 11:26

Every time I look at my watched threads & see a flurry of replies I get excited.

By the time the big man has finished checking his list - and it must be more than twice by now, I’m going to be in a drunken coma.

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 11:28

I don't understand how being Trans means that the whole school can have no discussions around VAWG and how they can insist everyone does more training for engaging in this? (Training delivered by the TW)

The claimant’s complaint
was that she had been discriminated against because of, or for reasons related
to, her disability and being a trans woman. In addition, the claimant also
complained of victimisation.

in order to
raise this allegation and according to the claimant she contended that this was a
matter that affected not only herself, but also other trans staff and students. The
follow on from this seems to have been the provision of training to the pastoral
team by the claimant.

a presentation to Form Tutors that
included a project called “The Counting Dead Women Project” written by Karen
Ingalla-Smith. This project looked at violence against women and girls and
contained a link to the list of women killed by men in the UK in 2021. This link was
not provided to pupils but only to tutors due to the sensitivity of the presentation.
The claimant recognised that the author of the presentation (Ms Smith) had also
published work which she believed to be trans-phobic. Although the allegedly
trans-phobic views of Ms Smith were not part of the presentation, the claimant
appears to have found the link to be offensive as she considered that it was a link
to a website operated by an anti-trans activist. The claimant felt that through this
website students could access content that was derogatory towards trans-women.

Chersfrozenface · 03/12/2025 11:29

I'm tempted to have some stickers printed with a picture of Kaa doing his hypnotism thing and the words "You are safe with me" on them.

I suppose Disney might come after me, but they'd have to find out first.

murasaki · 03/12/2025 11:35

Maybe Big Sond didn't want to crash the Girl Guides and WI party, so is waiting for tomorrow.

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 11:37

Do we know how the time line works.

ie are we now past the point that Carol Pottter resigning would have been because they have seen the report?

PinkFootstool · 03/12/2025 11:37

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 10:54

Thanks for explaining.

There seems to be some solid reasons for dismissal - not turning up to parents eve, insisting all pupils wear masks because it makes them anxious if they don't, not wanting to invigilate exams because of their anxiety....

A TW insisting that no one in the school discusses the participation of TiM in women's sport, or Ingalla-Smith's work on VAWG because they feel it is transphobic would be pretty hard work I imagine. It seems they also felt anyone even mentioning that someone has GC views was reported as a safeguarding issue.

I've only skim read it but will take more time when I have a mo

That person was clearly an absolute nightmare employee. A teacher no less. Complaining that a website recording how many women die at the hands of men is somehow transphobic. And that a teacher who is GC has views that are a safeguarding issue.

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