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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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Firefumes · 03/12/2025 17:23

socool · 03/12/2025 17:21

You know what I mean, it looks like SP will win, there are 55+ threads about it parsing and analysing every word, there is confidence in abundance that she will win her case.

I'm just wary.

I disagree tbh, I’m not assuming that she will lose - but rather I think the tribunal will be more critical towards her than you assume ie it won’t be a slam dunk and she may not wholly win or may be expected to make concessions in areas.

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 03/12/2025 17:24

socool · 03/12/2025 17:21

You know what I mean, it looks like SP will win, there are 55+ threads about it parsing and analysing every word, there is confidence in abundance that she will win her case.

I'm just wary.

I think it became obvious during the hearing that Sandie had been victimised and harassed, that NHS Fife had withheld information and that Upton had made up allegations and manipulated evidence. But I always got the impression that the judge never quite got the nuances and implications of gender ideology.

socool · 03/12/2025 17:29

Firefumes · 03/12/2025 17:23

I disagree tbh, I’m not assuming that she will lose - but rather I think the tribunal will be more critical towards her than you assume ie it won’t be a slam dunk and she may not wholly win or may be expected to make concessions in areas.

When I said it would be a slam dunk, it was with tongue in cheek, since I am not sure it will be either. Not trying to be negative but realistic. Mainly so that I can brace myself for some decisions that may not be 100% in SPs favour.

The Leonardo decision made me think about it much more.

Firefumes · 03/12/2025 17:30

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 03/12/2025 17:24

I think it became obvious during the hearing that Sandie had been victimised and harassed, that NHS Fife had withheld information and that Upton had made up allegations and manipulated evidence. But I always got the impression that the judge never quite got the nuances and implications of gender ideology.

The thing is, by law employers don’t have to do everything right or take every reasonable action or do everything the claimant has requested.

They just need to do the bare minimum ie the bar is set low for them and they are allowed to make mistakes. So what you may feel is egregious, a tribunal might see in a more balanced way and make allowances.

For example with the tribunal case above that was dismissed on all counts (Kelly/Leonardo) - the tribunal said that as only 1 employee out of thousands (ie the claimant) had a problem, the employer acted reasonably in expecting her to use another toilet. Sure, the claimant can lodge an appeal but it’s a clear example of where a tribunal has taken an approach of allowing the employer to use discretion and not take out every reasonable action.

Totallygripped · 03/12/2025 18:38

Not directly on immediate points. But...I have been looking at Reddit where there is a lot about so called SRS. There seems to be a limited number of surgeons in the UK. And not clear whether this particular intervention is primarily private or NHS. I think we had one practicing doctor on these threads. I do wonder whether these surgeons honestly and genuinely believe their patients are biological women with unfortunate superfluous parts or whether this is just an expression of arrogance about their technical abilities to create neo this and neo thats.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 03/12/2025 20:11

Totallygripped · 03/12/2025 18:38

Not directly on immediate points. But...I have been looking at Reddit where there is a lot about so called SRS. There seems to be a limited number of surgeons in the UK. And not clear whether this particular intervention is primarily private or NHS. I think we had one practicing doctor on these threads. I do wonder whether these surgeons honestly and genuinely believe their patients are biological women with unfortunate superfluous parts or whether this is just an expression of arrogance about their technical abilities to create neo this and neo thats.

In the past, surgeons used to ask for a psychiatric opinion that the operation was in the best interests of the patient. I don't know whether they still do.

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 20:28

KnottyAuty · 03/12/2025 13:05

I’m not sure about this. I was slapped down and threatened with an immediate ban for removal of the word lesbian from a male’s page on Wikipedia. I found it alarming for various reasons. But when I checked the volunteers involved were all uk based. It’s completely captured by neurodivergent computer blokes who presumably used to cross dress at weekends but now are “trans

I got the strong impression they might be some of the last soldiers standing as they do this in their spare time and seem to be true believers

Edited

If it was their personal page (e.g. User:Whoever), that is not subject to the same rules as articles in mainspace. Users are allowed to post pretty much whatever they want on their personal page as long as they are not using it for personal promotion or as a free web host. Editing another user's personal page is very much frowned on other than to address significant concerns or place project-related tags. If this user declared himself to be lesbian on his user page and you removed that, I am not surprised you were threatened with a ban. In Wikipedia terms, that was very poor behaviour.

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 20:32

ShamedBySiri · 03/12/2025 15:25

By the way, I haven't watched the Andrew Gold video, but I'm not sure I would take the word of someone who defends the right of UK football fans to racially abuse Jewish players.

I may well have missed it but towards the end of the video he talks about the nonsense of virtue signalling at football matches. He is of course Jewish. So I’d be surprised if he supports racial abuse of Jewish players. Or did you mean the man being interviewed?

Yes, Andrew Gold is Jewish, describing himself as an "atheist Jew". He wrote a column for HuffPost defending the right of football fans to use the ethnic slur "Yid" towards Jewish players.

Totallygripped · 03/12/2025 20:38

TriesNotToBeCynical · 03/12/2025 20:11

In the past, surgeons used to ask for a psychiatric opinion that the operation was in the best interests of the patient. I don't know whether they still do.

My question was about whether these surgeons genuinely believe they are operating on a biological female when they perform a vaginoplasty.

CarefulN0w · 03/12/2025 20:42

I think the fact that they would be forming at least some of it from penile tissue and would need to use male reference ranges for blood tests and other markers might give them a small clue.

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 20:48

Coffeeandcataddict · 03/12/2025 17:16

I don’t understand how this is in line with the Supreme Court Judgement. Can an employment tribunal over ride what the Supreme Court said?

No, an employment tribunal cannot override the Supreme Court.

The judge in this case stated, correctly, that FWS was about interpretation of the Equality Act and does not automatically apply to other legislation. She then decides that the Workplace Regulations only require an employer to control access to the women's toilets to the extent that is reasonably practicable and takes for granted that it is not "reasonably practicable" to set clear sex-based rules and expect employees to follow them. In essence, she says that sex-based rules are unworkable.

She is correct that she is not directly contradicting the SC judgement, but quite a lot of what she says clearly rejects the SC's reasoning. That is not acceptable.

As well as misinterpreting the SC, this judge appears to have misinterpreted Croft v Royal Mail. What she says about that judgement is, in my view, at odds with the actual decision of the EAT in that case. Croft specifically says, "ordinary good practice requires, as it seems to us, that an employer is to be expected to require those who are, or who are believed by him to be, at law males to use only the men’s facilities and those who are at law or who are believed by him to be females to use only the women’s". I do not see how the judge can read this as allowing an employer to permit men to use the women's facilities.

In my view, this judgement will not survive an appeal. The only question is whether an appeal will need to go all the way to the SC to get it overturned.

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 20:54

prh47bridge · 03/12/2025 20:48

No, an employment tribunal cannot override the Supreme Court.

The judge in this case stated, correctly, that FWS was about interpretation of the Equality Act and does not automatically apply to other legislation. She then decides that the Workplace Regulations only require an employer to control access to the women's toilets to the extent that is reasonably practicable and takes for granted that it is not "reasonably practicable" to set clear sex-based rules and expect employees to follow them. In essence, she says that sex-based rules are unworkable.

She is correct that she is not directly contradicting the SC judgement, but quite a lot of what she says clearly rejects the SC's reasoning. That is not acceptable.

As well as misinterpreting the SC, this judge appears to have misinterpreted Croft v Royal Mail. What she says about that judgement is, in my view, at odds with the actual decision of the EAT in that case. Croft specifically says, "ordinary good practice requires, as it seems to us, that an employer is to be expected to require those who are, or who are believed by him to be, at law males to use only the men’s facilities and those who are at law or who are believed by him to be females to use only the women’s". I do not see how the judge can read this as allowing an employer to permit men to use the women's facilities.

In my view, this judgement will not survive an appeal. The only question is whether an appeal will need to go all the way to the SC to get it overturned.

I am slowly making my way through it. So many open goals.

I can't make sense of it. Not in denial - I can see how some conclusions could be drawn - but on the whole reads as rushed, personal and ill thought out. As it was clearly well watched and tweeted EJ knew there would be many observers.

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 20:56

@NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard

Did you get a blank page here - is there a wipe going on?

www.fidra.org.uk/team/michelle-sutherland/

Totallygripped · 03/12/2025 20:57

Well you and I might think but...
Someone on Reddit was so cross that the NHS would not give them penile preserving vaginoplasty, because that is apparently a thing,facial surgery, epilation and voice training. And so many piled in to support. Words fail.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 03/12/2025 21:00

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 20:56

@NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard

Did you get a blank page here - is there a wipe going on?

www.fidra.org.uk/team/michelle-sutherland/

Totally blank page here at 21:00 3/12/25

TriesNotToBeCynical · 03/12/2025 21:20

Totallygripped · 03/12/2025 20:38

My question was about whether these surgeons genuinely believe they are operating on a biological female when they perform a vaginoplasty.

Having met many surgeons, I really, really doubt it; assuming they have thought about the question at all.

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 03/12/2025 21:48

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 20:56

@NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard

Did you get a blank page here - is there a wipe going on?

www.fidra.org.uk/team/michelle-sutherland/

This is still up.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
Yetmorewifework · 03/12/2025 21:51

SidewaysOtter · 03/12/2025 10:11

Right, Big Sond, listen up.

It's Christmas and we women have got shit to do. Presents don't buy themselves, food doesn't magically arrive and that's before we've had to spend 20 minutes finding the end of the bastarding sellotape.

So could you GET A BLOODY MOVE ON?

How late do we let it go before we decide it's going to be in 2026?
Do the tribunal service work until 24th Dec?!

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 21:55

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 03/12/2025 21:48

This is still up.

Ok something funny my end then

NotAtMyAge · 03/12/2025 22:01

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 21:55

Ok something funny my end then

Not just your end. I'm getting a blank page too and I've tried several times.

SqueakyDinosaur · 03/12/2025 22:02

Same here, and I've just cleared my cache so it's not that.

SidewaysOtter · 03/12/2025 22:08

Yetmorewifework · 03/12/2025 21:51

How late do we let it go before we decide it's going to be in 2026?
Do the tribunal service work until 24th Dec?!

We were promised “before Christmas” and I’m holding Big Sond to that otherwise I’m going to have to order more wine and I shall be expecting him to cover the invoice.

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 03/12/2025 22:13

SexRealismBeliefs · 03/12/2025 20:56

@NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard

Did you get a blank page here - is there a wipe going on?

www.fidra.org.uk/team/michelle-sutherland/

I don't think I have seen that page before. I posted the About us page link on the Kely thread 5 I think, and Judge sutherland is at the bottom of the page

Peregrina · 03/12/2025 23:06

I am getting a blank page too.

SexRealismBeliefs · 04/12/2025 08:23

Ok big Sond. Today is a day before Christmas. Any chance lad?

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