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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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53
ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 13:27

ProfessorFanOfBen · 21/11/2025 13:25

I am pretty sure we were told it was indeed sent to the very email address that SM did not have access to!

Have to say also, to my mind the most shocking part of the whole thing is that anyone knew anyone else's password!

Yeah, good point!

Does that imply that MD had access to SM's account, even though SM did not??

ProfessorFanOfBen · 21/11/2025 13:28

ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 13:27

Yeah, good point!

Does that imply that MD had access to SM's account, even though SM did not??

Yes!

123ZYX · 21/11/2025 13:29

Cailin66 · 21/11/2025 13:23

I’ve a few questions if I may.

  • why does the BFF not list its board of directors
  • where would one find their accounts
  • their website is woefully deficient on who their people are and what they do, is this normal or am I looking in the wrong place

Have a look here for accounts and peoplehttps://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=102004&subId=0

Charity Details | The Charity Commission for Northern Ireland

Charity Details

https://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=102004&subId=0

weegielass · 21/11/2025 13:30

oh naomi I love you so

ProfPerfectlySoftButter · 21/11/2025 13:33

Cailin66 · 21/11/2025 13:23

I’ve a few questions if I may.

  • why does the BFF not list its board of directors
  • where would one find their accounts
  • their website is woefully deficient on who their people are and what they do, is this normal or am I looking in the wrong place

Here you go; look under Filings:
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/NI032251

BELFAST FILM FESTIVAL LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

BELFAST FILM FESTIVAL LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/NI032251

WomanInnaWoods · 21/11/2025 13:33

ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 13:27

Yeah, good point!

Does that imply that MD had access to SM's account, even though SM did not??

Acknowledged by MD herself in Nov. 18 evidence:

NC even off sick she could have put an ooo
MD or I could as I was doing all the IT

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2025 13:34

weegielass · 21/11/2025 13:30

oh naomi I love you so

That sounds like a line from a song - Has there ever been a song about a 'Naomi'??

TheRevDocProfKittyWilkinsonTSB · 21/11/2025 13:38

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2025 13:34

That sounds like a line from a song - Has there ever been a song about a 'Naomi'??

Oh Naomi, by Smashing Pumpkins.
Or perhaps it is Sigommi ?

ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 13:39

ProfessorFanOfBen · 21/11/2025 13:28

Yes!

Well!

That's just not cricket, is it.

Do they not have a 'forgotten password' button or the like? What kind of system is this?!

Bloody cowboys...

And @WomanInnaWoods Thanks for that!

“One has got all the goodness, and the other all the appearance of it.

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2025 13:41

Thank you, Reverend Doctor Professor, the Smashing Pumpkins passed me by obviously!, never heard that song..
I always say somebody on MN knows everything.

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 21/11/2025 13:46

I think it passes well with the KWS version of 'Babe I love you so and I want you to know' but substituting 'Naomi' for 'Babe'.

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2025 13:50

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 21/11/2025 13:46

I think it passes well with the KWS version of 'Babe I love you so and I want you to know' but substituting 'Naomi' for 'Babe'.

...or with '...say it loud and there's music playing/Say it soft an it's almost like praying'...😁

ProfPerfectlySoftButter · 21/11/2025 13:56

Whilst I continue to fail to write bigly bigly text, the R4 pre-Archers programme is explaining that you can train a capybara to act as a guide dog.
(A Carnival of Animals - Part 5)

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:03

From NW

The written submissions are now available to be inspected by the public. Here are the results of a v quick and incomplete skim through. Respondents first:

"The present case is not about the correctness or otherwise of gender critical or sex realist views. It is not about whether transwoman should be allowed to compete in female sports. These are matters the Tribunal does not have to make a determination upon."

"Despite the clear desire of the Claimant to make the case about such matters... this is a relatively straightforward case and relates to whether or not an employer is entitled to investigate in circumstances where it is receiving complaints relating to an employee."

"17. It is also at this stage important to note Ms Devlin was clear that she was aware of the claimant’s views around transgenderism prior to the left woman speak about [presume that's meant to be "the Let Women Speak event"]. Given that these views appear to be of central importance to the claimant it is unsurprising that her work colleagues would be aware of those views. There is no evidence that at any time in the past there was any suggestion that the claimant would be investigated or disciplined because of her views in this area. Ms Devlin did say that she intended to raise the claimant’s comments at Belfast Exposed and outside a pub at her supervision but that again shows that those types of views were not something that were a cause for any investigation. The panel is therefore entitled to conclude that there was no rush on the part of Ms Devlin to investigate as soon as she saw the LWS speech. It is submitted this would be a fair but important conclusion as it will assist the Tribunal in making a conclusion as to what operated on the mind of Ms Devlin when she decided to initiate an investigation."

"27. The response to the 3 July 2023 email from Outburst arts can be seen at 207. It is clear from this that the in the eyes of that organisation the manner in which the claimant had manifest her political opinion was divisive and lead them to not want to work with the claimant. The email stated that it “feels deeply inappropriate” to receive an email that the claimant is copied into.

  1. The Queerspace response is at 221. The Tribunal would be entitled to infer that that email again flags up an unwillingness to work with the Claimant and as a consequence, damage to the Respondent both in terms of its reputation and its ability to deliver work with partner organisations."

"... the Tribunal would be entitled to conclude that emails from Mark Cousins were operating on Ms Devlins mind when she decided to have an investigation. At 303 the email from Mr Cousins of 25 May makes clear that he has an issue with the organiser of the LWS event. He also states the Respondent can’t control the thoughts of staff. This shows it is the manner that the claimant manifested her views that was of concern and not the views themselves."

"Ms Devlin was clear that it was the impact on the organisation as a consequence of how the claimant manifested her views that was rationale for the investigation. In particular she was concerned about the criticism of partner organisations."

"The Respondent has properly accepted that a belief that biological sex is materially real and not be conflated with self-identified gender is a relevant political opinion. However, there is a further issue as to whether or not the extracts of the Claimant’s speech that caused the Respondent concern, that being criticism of woman’s groups for being a ‘racket’, is a political opinion. If it is not then the entire discrimination case must fail."

"In respect of the initiation of the investigation, it is important that the Tribunal considers who made that decision and their mental processes. Whilst the board were supportive of an application it is clear that it was an operational decision and would have been a matter for Ms Devlin. Even if it was a joint decision by Ms Devlin, Ms Barros D’Sa and Ms McGivern it is clear from the evidence of all that it was the comments about woman’s groups and the damage to the respondent that caused them to agree to or be supportive of an investigation. The decision to investigate was not therefore an act of discrimination."

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:07

From NW

"The Tribunal can conclude that the respondent is a small organisation. Whilst larger organisations may have clear policies around referring to OH the industrial jury is entitled to take note of the fact that smaller organisations tend not to have such policies. When standing back and focusing on the evidence as a whole, it is clear that not referring the Claimant to OH until December 2023 was not an act of discrimination. The Claimant has not proved facts to pass the burden but even if she had, in light of the foregoing, this particular of discrimination must fail."

"In relation to the email Ms Devlin admits she made a foolish error in sending the password to the Claimant’s work email. A new password was sent in November. There is no evidence that Ms Devlin was seeking to restrict access for discriminatory reasons. The Claimant was also off sick and so didn’t have any need to access emails which undermines the suggestion that Ms Devlin would seek to restrict access for a discriminatory reason."

"The Claimant accepted both the grievance and grievance appeal were thorough. They were not a whitewash. There is no suggestion that either the grievance or appeal failed to consider relevant evidence or question a relevant witness. Ms Owens’ evidence was not challenged. In short there was a grievance process properly conducted. In light of the decision in Kaur, the claim of constructive dismissal must fail as the last straw that caused the claimant to resign was the appeal outcome. Nothing about that appeal or its outcome constitutes a last straw."

So that's a necessarily incomplete canter through R's written subs.
Court is sitting - will try to get the C's subs out after this hearing.

weegielass · 21/11/2025 14:09

Shocking that the respondents legal team can't take the time to write a submission properly

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:09

From NW

NC is speaking she has three more issues she wants to mention: 1 it would be harsh in the extreme to penalise an employee - the Grievance Appeal Outcome was a perfectly reasonable "last straw" and our decision not to xe doesn't affect that.

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:10

weegielass · 21/11/2025 14:09

Shocking that the respondents legal team can't take the time to write a submission properly

It's Nick's highlights, so it might not reflect the quality of their submission.

EdithStourton · 21/11/2025 14:11

MarieDeGournay · 21/11/2025 13:23

Thank you Myrtle!

Well done Marie!

No self-restraint here.

Anyone want the drinks trolley this afternoon? I have to walk Brains and Batshit for an hour or so later on so I'll need a sub.

anyolddinosaur · 21/11/2025 14:11

@MarieDeGournay Quit a few songs about Naomis, maybe "Beautiful Naomi" by Marc Scibilia

ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 14:12

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:10

It's Nick's highlights, so it might not reflect the quality of their submission.

The 'left woman speak about [presume that's meant to be "the Let Women Speak event"].' was a b it of a humdinger!

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:14

Cailin66 · 21/11/2025 13:23

I’ve a few questions if I may.

  • why does the BFF not list its board of directors
  • where would one find their accounts
  • their website is woefully deficient on who their people are and what they do, is this normal or am I looking in the wrong place

All the information is available on the Charity Commission of Northern Ireland's website.

Trustees
https://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=102004&subId=0

Visual representation of its Finances
https://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=102004&subId=0

Latest accounts
https://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/ccni_ar_attachments/0000102004_20240331_CA.pdf

Rest of the accounts and annual reports for download
https://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=102004&subId=0

Charity Details | The Charity Commission for Northern Ireland

Charity Details

https://www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details?regId=102004&subId=0

Londonmummy66 · 21/11/2025 14:14

ProfessorBettyBooper · 21/11/2025 14:12

The 'left woman speak about [presume that's meant to be "the Let Women Speak event"].' was a b it of a humdinger!

I assume Left WOmen Speak would be an acceptable forum - unwilling to tolerate the rightwing TERFs as per MC.

MyrtleLion · 21/11/2025 14:14

From NW
2 if you think the 3 July email was a deliberate ruse then its hard to avoid aggravated damages

3 there was inordinate delay in the grievance process and the appeal - some small parts of that were C's unavailability and discussion and the most sig delay comes after the end of the process and there's no excuse for that

SD starts with an apology for his bad par numbering and typos as it was a tight turnaround time
J thought that was the case - wasn't go to draw attn to it
SD says there is no case for aggravated damages as it's a duplication of a different side of the damages claim

SD the delay to the grievance outcome was legitimate as it was a very complex case
SD - as per Mark Cousins (MC) SM had become "dirty by association" in sharing a stage with those she did at LWS - she's also prima facie in breach of contract and the way she manifested her beliefs, and that she criticised women's groups who have partnered with the respondent as "a racket"

SD takes J to Page (appellant) v NHS Trust Development Authority (respondent) [2021] "In the context of the protected characteristic of religion or belief the EAT case-law has recognised a distinction between (1) the case where the reason is the fact that the claimant holds and/or manifests the protected belief, and (2) the case where the reason is that the claimant had manifested that belief in some particular way to which objection could justifiably be taken. In the latter case it is the objectionable manifestation of the belief, and not the belief itself, which is treated as the reason for the act complained of."

ProfessorDoctorJudgeOfSteel · 21/11/2025 14:15

Lunde · 21/11/2025 12:46

My ex-h was from North Yorkshire and his granny used to serve them at all 3 courses
starter: with onion gravy
main course : with roast beef
dessert: with golden syrup

Sage and onion in either the starter or main course ones. 😋 I always got double puddings as I’ve been vegetarian since I was 11. My Nan used to hide bits of chicken in my mashed spuds and beef stock in my gravy as she thought it was unnatural. I dread to think what I didn’t know about.

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