From NW
I’m trying to think of an example - what if you had been accused of antisemitism - would you read up about that
MTM it’s “absurd” to say that antisemitism is any way equivalent- the world knows about antisemitism, the
holocaust happened. we have not being discussing trans rights and gender ID for 00s and 00s and 00s of year. I don’t do social media and largely the info I get is through the newspapers and its one of those areas I just glance through
NC you were until recently principle and CEO of Belfast Metropolitan College
MTM yes
NC And are you aware of BMC’s policies with regard to trans-identified people
MTM no because I left in 2020 and I don’t have a memory of discussing trans rights - discussing gender neutral toilets etc after I retired.
NC you knew Caleb’s allegation was made up. you knew it was offered up as support of your action against SM - that’s why you didn’t investigate
MTM it had to be taken seriously
NC Caleb is employed by Outburst arts isn’t he
MTM I don’t know
NC if he is, it's odd that three complaints come in quick succession from one org
MTM people talk to each other - not that surprising
[new subject]
NC do you not think you were not the best person to sit in on SM’s grievance appeal
MTM no
NC but part of the G appeal was about the decision to investigate and how it was taken - was it okay for you to be presiding over an appeal for a G provoked partly by an iv deicsion to which you were a party
MTM you’re saying that - I was supportive of the idea. with regard to the appeal I was there to listen and make commentary and note process. Mr Owens led it.
NC “was this not a bit too much like being judge in your own cause”
MTM “you might say that I couldn’t agree with you”
NC and you said Emmet Owens led the process, you were v much the senior partner in this pairing weren’t you
MTM I think we were equals in the process - he was very thorough, he led all the questioning on the day and he wrote the final report
NC appeal hearing on 30 Sep - you say you reviewed your notes - which notes did you review
MTM the package of things that were in front of us that day
NC appeal report in Nov and it was issued to C on same day. Didn’t see any drafts?
MTM no - we wanted to do it as quickly as possible
NC it’s quite a chunky report isn’t it
MTM it’s chunky enough, but an hour would take you through it - reviewing it against my notes I was very happy with his diligence
NC so you approved it unchanged
MTM yes
NC I am going to suggest you knew exactly what it was going to say as you were the senior person on this
MTM no
NC you did the appeal, LBD did the initial grievance so the two directors intimately involved in kicking off the investigation were now controlling the process.
MTM we were not intimately involved and we did not have any influence over the process. [stars waxing
lyrical about Mr Owens brilliance]
NC you got TP in to look impartial, but both the people you engaged had a board minder to ensure you got the result you wanted.
MTM I’ve already said what I’ve said and I think Mr Owens will tell you himself when he gives evidence
J he’s not being called
MTM in my experience he’s a v accomplished HR expert and was “very impressed by him and I’m not
easily impressed but I was very impressed by him”
MTM the reality is that a voluntary board did not have the time or expertise to undertake iv, so they were brought in to bring that expertise to us in the same way if we had a building contract, we’d bring in a
builder, if we had a legal issue, we’d bring in a lawyer - we didn’t have the skillset, so we brought in a company to ensure it was done properly and it was done in a very professional way.
NC no further evidence
[SD re-ex]
[SD picks her up on her agreement with NC about SM’s contract.]
SD Where does it say anything about regular employment
MTM now you mention it it doesn’t