HR tell trans identified person to use work toilets that match biological sex. Person refuses. Colleagues complain about their presence in incorrect toilets to HR. What's the legal position of all parties?

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

Whats the legal position for the workplace (repped by HR) as well as the trans identifying person? Will it depend on written policies in the workplace? Or by toilets saying Male/Female on them (or with the recognised signs for sexed spaces).

Different from the NHS cases, as this time HR is saying "don't do that". Could the trans identifying person get constructive dismissal?

Does it just become a disciplinary thing for not doing what you are told?

This isn't actually a hypothetical, I read this reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1ovzfde/hradvice/ along with the advice given to the OP.

(Do read all the comments if you have the chance ESPECIALLY the downvoted ones at the end by a user called "Protect-the-dollz" . I personally think it's awful there is so much disinformation and poor advice everywhere and people are risking their lives and mental health off of it)

If I use the same sex toilets, everyone will know I am trans and that would be a disaster.

This is a thing dthat has always baffled me. Out in public, you can tell it's a man in a dress 99.9% of the time so we all know he is trans.

I don't know how you would even attempt to hide it in a work situation.
Would Dave have a big leaving party on Friday but then come back as Davina on Monday when everyone has to pretend that Davina is a new female employee who can magically pick up all the work Dave left on Friday, or does Davina and everyone in the office have to go through a new employee process? Or, is it announced that Dave will be coming back as Davina on Monday and everyone is instructed to pretend he has always been a woman?

In both cases, how the fuck does anyone NOT know Dave is trans? Aside from the fact that Dave/Davina is likely to make being trans their whole personality...

I know that it is all about cognitive dissonance turned up to 11, but it is just beyond bonkers.

A large part of the delusion is somehow they think they are convincing. Most trans identifying people, especially men can be spotted a mile off. Their height, build, the way they walk and move - their movements are due to biology as our pelvises and angles of joints are different. Unfortunately as most people (especially in the UK are reasonable and "live and let live" they take the silence of others as acceptance and that they are successfully passing rather than it being a polite social norm and fear that prevents them from saying what they really think.

Yes, exactly.

I know this is not the point but couldnt you just turn the hand-dryer off at the plug?

Joining you in the 'not the point but..' place - I don't think things like hand-dryers in toilets have plugs with on-off switches, I think they are permanently wired in. I think so anyway....

A place I worked at had hand dryers with plugs with switches. We got an all users email telling us not to switch them on/ff because it was dangerous to with wet hands. Probably was with the ancient electrics in that building.

Letting some 'special because trans' able-bodied people use the accessible toilet just because they prefer it is 'more practical and economical than adding a fourth type of loo everywhere'.
And even more practical and economical solution is for them to use the toilets designated for their sex.

How on earth did the expensive and disruptive idea of adding a fourth space everywhere catch on, when the number of transpeople is such a tiny percentage of the UK population? Maybe around quarter of a million out of 69 million.

By way of comparison, there are about 16 million disabled people in the UK - not all needing accessible toilets, obviously, but those who do need them, need them, it's not a matter of preference or validation, they don't use them by choice because they are 'uncomfortable' using the standard toilets.

There are no toilet police, so we just have to trust able-bodied people - including trans ones - to respect the spaces designated for disabled people.

Bloody well said Marie!!!!

Anyone with a reddit account able to look at the OP and see if they posted anything more?

No further posts.

I do wish that protect the dolls fella would come here and talk to us about it 🙏🙏