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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

383 replies

Misla · 10/11/2025 11:54

About time!!

IOC likely to announce new policy early in new year after findings of a scientific review about the permanent physical advantages of being born male

The International Olympic Committee is set to announce a ban on transgender women in female competition early next year after a science-based review of evidence about permanent physical advantages of being born male.

The IOC’s guidance to Olympic sports has until now been that transgender women can compete with reduced testosterone levels but leaves it up to individual sports to decide. That is now set to change under its new president, Kirsty Coventry, who has promised to protect the female category.

The committee’s medical and scientific director, Dr Jane Thornton, last week presented to IOC members at a meeting in Lausanne the initial findings of a science-based review into the issues of transgender athletes and athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) competing in female sport.

Free-to-read link: https://archive.is/kGpyI

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

Transgender women to be banned from all female Olympic events

IOC likely to announce new policy early in new year after findings of a scientific review about the permanent physical advantages of being born male

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/olympics/article/olympic-ioc-transgender-athlete-ban-womens-sports-zhlpfll3b

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:18

Misla · 11/11/2025 13:02

Interesting. Things that wouldn't have been written even a year ago. Let's also remember that Imane has fathered children with his male sperm!

I don't believe that Khelif has fathered children. Are you referring to the possibility that Semenya has? That is, of course, a possibility and has not been confirmed.

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:24

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:18

I don't believe that Khelif has fathered children. Are you referring to the possibility that Semenya has? That is, of course, a possibility and has not been confirmed.

Yes, sorry! Was getting them mixed up. For sure Semenya has fathered children. With his actually female wife.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:25

What is interesting is that those who have an interest in protecting women's sports are already noting evidence about male bodies that may be unaffected by suppression of puberty.

Interesting research and important when discussing inclusion of male athletes who have not experienced male puberty / androgenisation in female sports.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.70155

When and Why Do Sex Differences in Handgrip Strength Emerge? Age-Varying Effects of Testosterone From Childhood to Older Adulthood

Jun Seob Song, Heontae Kim, Myungjin Jung

First published: 06 October 2025

ABSTRACT

Objectives : On average, males are stronger than females, with hormonal changes during puberty often cited as a contributing factor to this advantage. However, not all evidence consistently supports this explanation. The purpose of this study was to determine (1) when sex differences in handgrip strength and testosterone emerge, and (2) whether testosterone mediates the sex difference in handgrip strength and if this effect varies across age.

Methods : Time-varying effect modeling (TVEM) was used to examine age-specific trajectories of handgrip strength and testosterone, and to assess whether these trajectories differed by sex. A moderated mediation analysis was conducted to test whether the sex difference in handgrip strength was mediated by testosterone level, and whether this effect varied across age. Data were drawn from the 2011–2012 and 2013–2014 cycles (N = 11,035) of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Results : TVEM indicated that the sex difference in handgrip strength emerged at age 8, whereas the sex difference in testosterone level became evident at age 10. A moderated mediation analysis revealed that testosterone mediated the association between sex and handgrip strength, and this effect decreased with age (IMM = −0.18, 95% CI: −0.20, −0.16).

Conclusion : Sex difference in handgrip strength appears to be driven, in part, by the testosterone levels. However, this difference can be observed even before the onset of puberty, which suggests that testosterone alone does not fully explain the sex difference in muscle strength. This finding may have important implications for decisions regarding inclusivity and fairness in sports that emphasize strength.

RoamingToaster · 11/11/2025 14:26

Obviously puberty is important but there are differences in males and females well before then. Baby boys and girls have different growth charts for a reason. Boys are bigger. Baby boys also get a "mini puberty" a few months after birth where testosterone rises. So be careful when people tell you the boys and girls have a similar level when they're 5 or something as it's not looking at the full picture. These early differences have an effect going forward in a boy's life.

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:29

There was also this from Dr Emma Hilton about height with charts and graphics:

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1856720482583638038?s=20

Twitter 13th November 2024

Why male advantage in sport is not a social construct: height. Height is a key difference between males and females. What is nature v nurture? What does that mean for sport?

Bigger skeletons are most obviously driven by longer bone growth. Key bones like those in your thigh (“long bones”) grow from their end to get longer, making you taller.

The site of bone lengthening is called the “epiphyseal plate” or “growth plate”. Here, cells divide/enlarge, making new tissue that pushes the bone ends apart. This tissue calcifies and is replaced by bone, leading to lengthwise growth.

Height is very heritable - tall parents beget tall offspring - and “polygenic” - there are tons of genetic sequences that affect whether you are generally tall, average or short.

Some people carry genetic sequences that make their growth plates very active, meaning they will be generally taller. Others have lazy growth plates, making less new bone and limiting height. Lots of molecular stuff going on at these bone sites!

Height is also affected by environment. You need minerals like calcium to make new bone, so diet is important. Nutritional deficiencies and childhood disease can negatively affect bone growth.

Whether you inherit “tall genes”, “medium genes” or “short genes”, or however your particular combination averages out, is not a social construct. Importantly, both males and females are equally at the mercy of their height genes. When populations can access such things (economic investment, emigration, etc), average heights increase amongst both males and females.

But there is a third key input to height, and that is your sex. That is, when you compare males and females from the same demographic (same ethnicity/genetic pool, same socioeconomics), the males are alway taller. This is not a coincidence.

How does sex affect height? Let’s go back to those bone growth plates. When they are “open”, your bones are growing. This happens throughout childhood, and ramps up massively during puberty.

During puberty, growth plates activity increases under the control of hormones like growth factor hormones and sex hormones. Both estrogens in girls and testosterone in boys stimulate new bone growth. Now here’s the rub. Bone growth (and getting taller) stops when the growth plate “closes” (“epiphyseal closure”), and this is largely driven by only estrogens.

So what’s happening in girls? Well, around 10 yrs old, her body starts pumping out estrogen and she starts her growth spurt. A few years later, that estrogen closes down her growth plates and she stops growing. Females reach adult height around 14-15 yrs old.

https://t.co/enOE44e7pl

And compared to boys? Boys don’t enter puberty until a couple of years after girls. In those couple of years, they are growing in “childhood mode” - this is a couple of extra years that girls don’t get, and underpins a lot of the sex difference in height.

Then their testosterone kicks in, activating their growth plates and up they shoot (just like their female classmates did a couple of years ago). At around 16-18 yrs old, they convert enough of their testosterone to estrogens and their growth plates close, capping their height.

These differential growth trajectories between boys and girls are linked to sex. They are linked to the sex hormones made by the testes and ovaries, the interplay between these sex hormones, and how and when those sex hormones drive pubertal growth.

Even if a girl has inherited “tall genes” and drinks a ton of milk, her sex has an effect on her adult height. Even if a boy has inherited “short genes” and hates dairy, his sex has an effect on his adult height.

The effect of sex on your adult height is an outcome of your reproductive biology and the hormones associated with that reproductive biology. This is not a social construct, it is basic endocrinology.

And that’s what male sports advantage is - the acquisition of a physical trait that aids sports performance because one is male. Being male doesn’t mean you will be tall, it means you will be taller than if you had been female.

A follow up Q. The role of a Y chromosome gene in height is disputed. There is a sex chromosome gene (on both Xs and Ys) called SHOX, that is undeniably involved in height, in the sense that mutations cause bone growth disorders and short stature conditions. The possession of only one working copy has been proposed to underpin short stature in Turner syndrome.

However, typical height patterns in various DSDs can be explained by the hormonal interactions I describe above.

For example, Klinefelter males are unusually tall and have 3 SHOX copies. However, they also usually have low T, which delays puberty (longer childhood growth window) and delays the accumulation of sufficient estrogens to cap growth. Klinefelter males continue to grow long after other males have stopped (perhaps 20 yrs old).

In CAIS/Swyer, there is no T signalling and (usually) an absence of normally-timed estrogen supplementation. This delays puberty and lengthens the childhood growth window. Timing of diagnosis and estrogen supplementation will usually occur later than female growth is capped. So they are taller than female peers.

It's not a closed case, but I'm increasingly persuaded that hormonal milieu has sufficient explanatory power in most cases. The strongest counter is XX males, who are typically shorter than healthy males, but with the same T profile as Klinefelter males, so why aren't they also unusually tall?

Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) on X

Why male advantage in sport is not a social construct: height. Height is a key difference between males and females. What is nature v nurture? What does that mean for sport?

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1856720482583638038?s=20

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:31

There is also this:

Trans girls grow tall: adult height may be unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. I think this is where future studies will start to focus on these cases.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

centaury · 11/11/2025 14:39

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:24

Yes, sorry! Was getting them mixed up. For sure Semenya has fathered children. With his actually female wife.

I'm not sure this is true - it seems to be one of those things that has spread like wildfire on social media but is only a possibility, not a certainty. He has IVF-created children. Some men with 5-ard can father children with the aid of reproductive technologies, but not all. They may have been fathered by a donor. I'm not in the camp that says talking about this is off-limits (I think if he has fathered children it has relevance to his participation in female sport and to the appropriateness of people saying he "lives as" a woman.) But it is probably a bit unkind to make claims about his family and potential sterility when there is no confirmation.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/11/2025 14:55

Arran2024 · 10/11/2025 17:31

When isn’t she 😂

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 15:01

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:31

There is also this:

Trans girls grow tall: adult height may be unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. I think this is where future studies will start to focus on these cases.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

It is also important to note that Q-angles have been noted to be an osteological factor and if puberty suppression doesn't then impact on height and those femurs grow longer as per genetic coding, Q-angles will also remain another advantage that male people who have had their testosterone driven puberty completely suppressed before puberty will have.

Of course, how many pre pubertal male children are put on puberty blockers before any testosterone puberty has even started to impact their development. I would be hesitant to think that any research can be done on an individual to assess to what extent testosterone has impacted their body in puberty.

And if any male child has access to more testosterone than the testosterone range in healthy girls , then very strictly speaking, they have had a competitive benefit that was never available to a female athlete.

Obviously, more academic papers will come out about this and I will be interested to see the outcomes.

Misla · 11/11/2025 15:20

centaury · 11/11/2025 14:39

I'm not sure this is true - it seems to be one of those things that has spread like wildfire on social media but is only a possibility, not a certainty. He has IVF-created children. Some men with 5-ard can father children with the aid of reproductive technologies, but not all. They may have been fathered by a donor. I'm not in the camp that says talking about this is off-limits (I think if he has fathered children it has relevance to his participation in female sport and to the appropriateness of people saying he "lives as" a woman.) But it is probably a bit unkind to make claims about his family and potential sterility when there is no confirmation.

Well he certainly hasn't mothered them. He has internal testes. And, from his appearance, does not appear to be non-responsive to androgens.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 15:32

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 13:12

Yes. This was what I objected to:

MyObservations · Yesterday 14:36
In part because of the fake information that was being out around. The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender. If they have gender reassignment after puberty, they take with them the strengths and weaknesses of their former gender.

"The simple fact is that if someone has gender reassignment before puberty, they take on the strengths and weaknesses of their new gender."

I agree Bundle and others, I would love to see the evidence that supports this claim. Because, that does seem overly simplistic.

Perhaps as myobservations has said that they have been heavily involved in the topic for a long time, they might have some studies or papers that they can provide that show that a male child who has had their puberty suppressed before it even starts has the strengths and weaknesses that female people have.

I mean with the obvious exception of that male person never having to deal with menstruation impacts on the body or pregnancy. Which is actually a significant advantage that we are really only just starting to research properly.

ZoeCM · 11/11/2025 16:01

Hormonal changes aren't enough to level the playing field. A lot of the differences in male and female bodies are the result of DNA.

ZoeCM · 11/11/2025 16:16

As more and more organisations return to dividing sport by sex rather than gender, professional trans athletes will eventually become a thing of the past. I predict TRAs will try to use that to their advantage. They'll hope that Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, etc. will fade from public consciousness - and when people do bring them up, they'll say, "You're still going on about Lia Thomas? Christ, you're stuck in 2022. Do you have any idea how much hormone therapy has advanced since then?"

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 16:31

RoamingToaster · 11/11/2025 14:26

Obviously puberty is important but there are differences in males and females well before then. Baby boys and girls have different growth charts for a reason. Boys are bigger. Baby boys also get a "mini puberty" a few months after birth where testosterone rises. So be careful when people tell you the boys and girls have a similar level when they're 5 or something as it's not looking at the full picture. These early differences have an effect going forward in a boy's life.

Yes. Greg Brown and team have been working their way through reviewing USA child sports results. I have stashed the links in the archive thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=4

The thread also has links to the Australian, Greek and I think a Danish child sports review as well.

There has been consistently a difference between female and male children sports performances from around 6 years old. Plus a disc golf advantage from 10 years old as per Tommy Lundberg's recent research.

Page 4 | Save female sports evidence thread | Mumsnet

I am conscious that the Break it Down for me thread is nearly full. I am therefore hoping that this thread can be an archive thread just for the sport...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=4

WandaSiri · 11/11/2025 16:40

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 14:25

What is interesting is that those who have an interest in protecting women's sports are already noting evidence about male bodies that may be unaffected by suppression of puberty.

Interesting research and important when discussing inclusion of male athletes who have not experienced male puberty / androgenisation in female sports.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.70155

When and Why Do Sex Differences in Handgrip Strength Emerge? Age-Varying Effects of Testosterone From Childhood to Older Adulthood

Jun Seob Song, Heontae Kim, Myungjin Jung

First published: 06 October 2025

ABSTRACT

Objectives : On average, males are stronger than females, with hormonal changes during puberty often cited as a contributing factor to this advantage. However, not all evidence consistently supports this explanation. The purpose of this study was to determine (1) when sex differences in handgrip strength and testosterone emerge, and (2) whether testosterone mediates the sex difference in handgrip strength and if this effect varies across age.

Methods : Time-varying effect modeling (TVEM) was used to examine age-specific trajectories of handgrip strength and testosterone, and to assess whether these trajectories differed by sex. A moderated mediation analysis was conducted to test whether the sex difference in handgrip strength was mediated by testosterone level, and whether this effect varied across age. Data were drawn from the 2011–2012 and 2013–2014 cycles (N = 11,035) of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Results : TVEM indicated that the sex difference in handgrip strength emerged at age 8, whereas the sex difference in testosterone level became evident at age 10. A moderated mediation analysis revealed that testosterone mediated the association between sex and handgrip strength, and this effect decreased with age (IMM = −0.18, 95% CI: −0.20, −0.16).

Conclusion : Sex difference in handgrip strength appears to be driven, in part, by the testosterone levels. However, this difference can be observed even before the onset of puberty, which suggests that testosterone alone does not fully explain the sex difference in muscle strength. This finding may have important implications for decisions regarding inclusivity and fairness in sports that emphasize strength.

Thanks for that, Helleofabore - I will save that link.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/11/2025 17:06

Misla · 11/11/2025 14:24

Yes, sorry! Was getting them mixed up. For sure Semenya has fathered children. With his actually female wife.

I find it interesting to contrast Semenya with the Austrian skier Erik Schinegger. He also fathered children and tried to compete in the men's event when he found out the truth about himself.

It looks like he'd have had a good chance of winning, but he was forbidden from changing to the men's category after winning in the women's, I recall.

Arran2024 · 11/11/2025 17:27

There will never be definitive research. There are a few people doing small scale stuff but at the end of the day, who would be funding large scale research and why? It's not going to happen.

Secondly, we can't guarantee that trans athletes won't reduce their performance in the tests in order to give the research the results they want.

So trans activists will continue to claim we can't ban trans women because there is no research. And they will seize on tiny research studies that show what they want.

Instead, we should ignore them and focus instead on the data from real athletes - comparing race times etc.

All this stuff about grip strength etc is irrelevant against the bigger picture of actual results.

logiccalls · 11/11/2025 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 17:50

Talltreesbythelake · 11/11/2025 13:33

Not really true, though. A male child will be weakened, unable to grow into their genetic potential. A female child will also be damaged. Perhaps stronger than their female cohort but how long will that last? Will they keep their health or will osteoporosis set in early due to low oestrogen levels? There are lots of health drawbacks that a lovely beard and biceps doesn't protect them from.

A weakened and castrated boy is not the same as a girl.

Helleofabore · 11/11/2025 17:56

Arran2024 · 11/11/2025 17:27

There will never be definitive research. There are a few people doing small scale stuff but at the end of the day, who would be funding large scale research and why? It's not going to happen.

Secondly, we can't guarantee that trans athletes won't reduce their performance in the tests in order to give the research the results they want.

So trans activists will continue to claim we can't ban trans women because there is no research. And they will seize on tiny research studies that show what they want.

Instead, we should ignore them and focus instead on the data from real athletes - comparing race times etc.

All this stuff about grip strength etc is irrelevant against the bigger picture of actual results.

I agree. No large scale research will ever be done. I doubt that any research directly on athletes will be done. For a start, they would have to find a group of healthy male athletes who has received puberty blockers from before puberty started, that alone is going to be hard enough to find. However, there may well be some rare athletes competing that can be tracked.

Instead, what I suspect will be more likely to happen will be academic papers giving expert opinion on what physical advantages will not be prevented with blocking puberty.

I think that the discussion for now had settled on 'male puberty' as a distinction for discussions and in the future it will be expanded. I have noticed that the IOC news items yesterday mention 'puberty'.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 17:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/11/2025 14:55

When isn’t she 😂

I tend to take her furious posts as a good sign that the world is righting itself.

When she’s happy there’s normally something evil happening.

ThatCyanCat · 11/11/2025 18:29

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 17:58

I tend to take her furious posts as a good sign that the world is righting itself.

When she’s happy there’s normally something evil happening.

She's completely off her rocker and now all she's looking for is engagement.

EmpressaurusKitty · 11/11/2025 18:39

I can’t wait for the debate with Helen Joyce. If it happens.

HildegardP · 11/11/2025 18:53

MyObservations · 10/11/2025 22:03

I'm just giving you the facts. BTW, gender reassignment is sex change surgery.

Wishful thinking is not "facts". "Sex change surgery" is a physical impossibility despite that antiquated term having once had some currency.

HildegardP · 11/11/2025 19:00

@Helleofabore Interesting link, thanks. Not an entire surprise given that males experience three main surges of androgenisation - in utero, neonatal, & pubertal.